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(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

This is the story behind the infamous Bubble Taurus (as referenced in Chapter 9 of our book Simple Money, Rich Life) and 3 life-changing lessons that I learned.

Now, you may have heard me talk about this in the past. But, I want to go in depth and let you know what a Bubble Taurus actually is and why it is infamous.

I will also let you in on the key thing that has been important for me to really get ahead financially. In which, I think can serve all of us well in many aspects of life.

In this article I have some hard questions for you, too. Have you pondered where you put your identity? Do you put too much emphasis on the material? How much do you care about what others think of you?

Now before we get into this I wanted to let you know that, Linda and I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast below. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Is this a requirement for Boomers?

Bob: So this is a lean back lay back episode. We are leaning back in our chairs. You’re leaning back?

Linda: I’m trying to, it’s kinda nice sitting up straight.

Bob: But I wonder if we get like recliners and like put two of those old school boomer rec recliners. Why is it a requirement for baby boomers to have recliners?

Linda: Recliners… my parents don’t have one. 

Bob: Yeah, they do. 

Linda: Yes, they do. 

Bob: They have couches with recliners built in. 

Linda: But they don’t ever sit in those. 

Bob: My parents, 

Linda: Your parents though. 

Bob: Still are rocking both of those leather recliners. 

Linda: They got rid of the couch and they were like let’s just get recliners. 

Bob: They have two recliners. 

Linda: They have those giant mugs from the from the gas station (here’s 75 gas saving tips to save at the pump!).

Bob: They have their 64 ounce or 150 ounce mug.

Linda: Oh, look at my giant drink.

Bob: Anyway, we are very much millennials.  Isn’t it interesting though, that like, just generationally, no one has… 

Linda: We are millennials by the skin of our teeth. 

Bob: Yeah. But like generationally isn’t it interesting that like, where did the recliners go? Why is that not a thing? 

Linda: They’re so ugly. 

Bob: I know, but why is that not a thing? 

Linda: Because they’re so ugly. 

Bob: Well, some people probably don’t like it or like ’em, and they don’t think they’re ugly. 

Linda: I feel like as design became more accessible, like good design became more accessible through Ikea and stuff like that.

Bob: There have to be decent looking recliners, all of them aren’t ugly. Anyway. 

Linda: I know.

Bob: If you have a good looking recliner, you should send us a pic. 

Linda: Send us a picture. 

Bob: Tag us an Instagram. 

Linda: If you’ve ever seen a good looking one. 

Bob: There are probably plenty of people who are listening still like I have a recliner it’s super comfortable, anyway. 

Linda: That’s what they all say. It’s so comfortable. 

Bob: No, and I… 

Linda: Which we get. 

Bob: I still love that. I’m not going to lie. 

Linda: I actually don’t like the recliners. I feel like they hit me my head the wrong way. Maybe it’s because I just never broke one in, but you got to break one in yourself. I don’t know. 

Bob: So we are leaning back on plastic chairs.

Linda: Ugh. I’ve been struggling. My back is struggling. 

Bob: And the reason why, well… yeah, Linda’s back is hurting her a little bit. 

Linda: Why don’t you sit up straight though? 

Bob: Nope. Nope. This is a lean back episode. 

Linda: Gosh. 

Bob: So anyway, that was a long kind of introduction. I guess. 

Linda: That was a really long introduction. A whole lot of information that they don’t care anything about.

Bob: I don’t know somebody somebody’s going to be excited about this. 

Linda: I’m sorry. I’m going to fix my hair. 

Bob: Somebody is going to be sending us a picture of their recliner. Letting us know how comfortable they are.

The Bubble Taurus

Bob: But today we’re talking about the Bubble Taurus. 

Linda: The Bubble Taurus. 

Bob: Some of you know what the Bubble Taurus is, cause the Bubble Taurus is…

Linda: It’s in the book.

Bob: It’s a character in our lives. It is affectionately known as the Bubble Taurus. This is from chapter nine of our book. 

Linda: Oh, let’s see if I can find that. 

Bob: Where we tell that where we tell the story of the Bubble Taurus. So I will quickly tell you the story of the Bubble Taurus in case you haven’t read our book, Simple Money, Rich Life. But the story is better in that because I can write and get all the details out better than I can tell it, but. 

Linda: Let’s see, we’ll give you photo of Bob and the Taurus.

Bob: And so for anyone listening, who can’t see this… 

Linda: Trying to see, there you go.

Bob: The Bubble Taurus. It was that era in the nineties where they made those, if anybody remembers the Tauruses, remember how they used to be squared off? And then they were like, whoa, we’re going to turn this thing into all rounded and basically into this bubble. 

Linda: I don’t even remember the square Tauruses. 

Bob: Oh yeah. Before that, there was a square Tauruses and they went to the more rounded shape. It’s like, let’s turn it into a bubble. And so that’s why I call it the “Bubble Taurus.”

Do not pass up a good “insurance policy”

Bob: So here’s where we were. We were early in our marriage. This is whatever, 15, 14 years ago at this point, right? 

Linda: Oh yeah. 

Bob: And we have two cars. We have two old cars at that point. 

Linda: I mean, not super old, but. 

Bob: Probably what, eight years old and six years old or something? 

Linda: Maybe something like. 

Bob: But they were both fairly unreliable cars. And so for that reason, I’ll just say that they were old because they were kind of unreliable and unpredictable. We didn’t really know what was going to happen. 

Linda: Yeah. 

The great opportunity

Bob: And so my sister, Lauren, who owned this Bubble Taurus she was getting rid of, she was going to go trade into a dealer. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: And buy a new car. And I said, how much is the dealer going to pay you for it? And she’s like a thousand dollars. I’m like, no, don’t give it to them, give it to me. I’ll buy it off you for a thousand dollars. And so I went and gave her a thousand dollars to buy this Bubble Taurus which was going to be a third car for us, which… 

Linda: I love the way you tell this story. It’s so indicative of your relationship with her at that point before. You guys are mellowed out now. But you’re like, no, don’t give it to them. Give it to me. Sell it to me. I’ll buy that for a thousand dollars. And she’s like, oh, okay. And she just does it. She didn’t even look to see if she could get more for it. She was like, oh, okay. Bob wants it, I have to sell it to them. 

Bob: Well, no, she was going to give it to them. Like if she wanted to give it away for a thousand dollars, like I will take it. Don’t give it to the dealer. Anyway, so we can get into that later.

Having foresight to benefit your financial future

Bob: But so the reason I did this, I was a very calculated. It was a well thought out decision. I didn’t… well, you never know how it’s going to play out. But at the time again, we had two older cars that were starting to become more unreliable. And I thought, and I knew, that she had taken meticulous care of this car. I knew it was a really good car. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: And I knew that if one of our cars, the engine blew or the transmission blew or something like that, it was basically going to be totaled.

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: I knew that there’s no way I’m going to be able to spend a thousand dollars and quickly find a car as reliable as hers.

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: And so I thought, you know what? We could spend a thousand dollars on this car, buy this as an insurance policy, just in case one of our other cars blows up. And anyway, so that was kinda the logic behind this purpose. 

Linda: So Bob comes to me and he says, “I want to buy Lauren’s car. The dealer’s going to buy it from her for a thousand dollars, but I convinced her to let us buy it from her for a thousand dollars.” And I was like, we already have two cars. Can I just have that thousand dollars? Like I could do some damage with that. And Bob’s like, no, this is an insurance policy.

Bob: It was, yeah, it was an investment. 

Linda: Right. But you were like, this is a really good insurance policy. You were really convincing. 

Bob: I mean, it was a gamble to some extent. But anyway. 

Linda: Move along…

Was the gamble worth it?

Bob: How’d it play out? Was it a terrible decision, or not? 

Linda: Unfortunately for me. No. Fortunately for me, it ended up being a really good decision because Bob’s car broke down. 

Bob: Yeah. What a year? 

Linda: Couple months later? 

Bob: Yeah, it wasn’t that much longer. The engine completely blew, blew a head gasket. I mean and in… 

Linda: Oh my gosh. And it was like, here you go. You can pay like $6,000 to fix this. I think you ended up selling it to a mechanic for 500 bucks or something. 

Bob: Yeah, no, it was at the shop. We had to tow it to the dealer and he said the head gasket was blown. You basically had to replace the entire engine. 

Linda: So this was back… I mean, we just did not have a lot of money. Bob was getting ready to quit his job. Not quit, but be laid off at his job. And so his car breaks down. We’re just not make pulling in a lot of money. And he goes to a friend who is like have you ever towed a car before? And he’s like… 

Bob: Did we do that? 

Linda: Remember, you talked to John and he was like, I’ve towed a car before. I’ve also pushed a car before. Like, go from behind and just one car push the other car.

Bob: Did we actually do that? 

Linda: No, I don’t remember what we did. I think we ended up getting it to start or something. I can’t remember. It was like you left it for a day, and then it started back up. And so you drove it to a place and…

Bob: No, that was, that was the Bubble Taurus later on. 

Linda: That was when it ran outta gas. Right? 

Bob: I don’t know. Anyway, too many things. 

Linda: There are a lot. 

Bob: All this to say it ended up working out really well because my car blew up and then I began driving around this Bubble Taurus. So I wanted to talk. This is a long, long, long intro. 

Linda: Long way get there but, let’s go. 

Lessons learned from the Bubble Taurus

Bob: Let’s get to the point of all this. I want to talk about some of the lessons that I learned from driving around this Bubble Taurus.

Linda: Okay. 

Bob: So then at that point, the car was probably 11-12 years old. One of the ugliest cars I had ever seen in my life. And I spent three years driving this thing around. And I learned some, I don’t know, I think pretty important lessons through this.

Linda: Do we own seedtime.com/bubble-taurus, so people can just go and look at this car?

Bob: We do need to make some link to that. So here’s what we’ll do. We’ll make a link: seedtime.com/bubble.

Linda: Make a note. 

Bob: We’ll create that. You can go take a look at it if you want. Look at me and the Bubble Taurus all you want. So I’ll go ahead and set that URL up so anybody can check it out. Okay, let’s get into the lessons I learned.

Lesson #1: Patience

Bob: So the first lesson I learned in this whole thing, you know, because God used this to help me develop things in me. And so one of them was patience because I did not want to be driving this car, you know? It was a good financial move for us to create this as some sort of insurance policy for the worst case scenario, which kind of did happen. But I didn’t want to be driving this car around. I was embarrassed by it. It was really old and ugly. And the fact of the matter is, like we began doing better and better financially where we didn’t really need to do that.

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: We definitely didn’t need to do that. But I had this goal. I wanted to buy our next car with cash. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: And so I had the option of all right, do I run out and get a loan? Buy a brand new car, or newer car, that I really want right now? 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: Or, am I patient until we can actually save up enough to buy our next car with cash? 

Linda: Which our other car at that time was a Honda Fit. 

Bob: Mm-hmm. 

Linda: Which we called it the “mini minivan.” Because, it looks like a minivan but it was just… tiny. 

Bob: No disrespect to anybody who owns a Honda Fit. But it also is not the best looking car in the world. 

Linda: Not the best looking car for sure. But, that car was great though. 

Bob: But probably the best car we’ve ever owned. Ever. 

Linda: Yeah. I will agree because you could fit so much in that car. 

Bob: You could fit so much in it. 

Linda: It surprising how roomy it was. 

Bob: The most reliable car by far that we’ve ever owned.

Linda: Oh my gosh. 

Bob: 150,000 miles. We drove that thing over 10 years. And other than light bulbs, we replaced a bunch of light bulbs in it, but no mechanical issues. It was just amazing. 

Linda: Yeah. That was a really good car. 

Bob: It was a great car. So anyway, the patience component. This was an important lesson that I feel like God taught me during this. Because the fact of the matter is, if you can’t learn to wait for the things that you want, like you are never going to get ahead financially. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: This is just something that all of us have to learn. And honestly, I think we just continue to learn on deeper and more significant levels. Everything good in life requires patience. And the people who have no patience and are like, I gotta have it now. I gotta have it now. They miss out on so much good stuff in life. And so that was a really important thing that God kind of used. 

Lesson #2: Humility

Bob: Another lesson that I learned from this experience was humility.

Linda: Boy, did we. 

Bob: And you drove it some. But I mean, I felt like I drove it more. 

Linda: I didn’t drive it a lot. But yeah, it was kind of funny driving that thing around. Because I think we live in an age where image is everything. Where it’s like, you got to look a certain way. You got to have a certain things. And it’s interesting when you are in the position of not looking a certain way.

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: And you can either take that and it makes you feel like terrible about yourself or like stupid or embarrassed or whatever. Or, you can take it and realize this doesn’t define me. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Lesson #3: Identity

Linda: This doesn’t really say who I am. It’s just a temporary thing. 

Bob: Yeah. And that leads to the third lesson. 

Linda: Which it’s all temporary when we’re really thinking about it.

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: It’s like we can’t take any of it with us. So good or bad, super cool design or super ugly design… it’s not going with us to heaven. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: But what’s happening inside our hearts is going with us to heaven. So that’s what we need to be constantly purifying that. And constantly looking at what is on the inside of us to make sure that it’s lining up with who God has created us to be and how he wants us to be, you know? 

Bob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Yeah. So third lesson is just in identity. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: This ties into what you’re saying. But I had to ask myself, am I going to define myself? Or, am I going to care that other people are defining me by the car that I’m driving?

And this is such a dangerous thing. Because again, one of the reasons that I don’t use the term net worth, but use assets under management instead is because I just don’t want my identity be tied up in any specific number. And I think it’s the same way with our cars. There’s so many people that allow their car to become their identity.

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: You know? Either direction. But I think a lot of people think “I drive a really nice car, and therefore I feel better about myself.”

Linda: Right. 

Bob: I feel more important. I can convince other people that I’m important because I drive a really nice car.

Linda: Right. Yeah. 

Bob: And who am I, if I don’t have that anymore?

Linda: Well, even like your dad worked in the union and it was really not cool to drive a foreign car. 

Bob: Not only not cool, but… 

Linda: You were not allowed to in your house, right? 

Bob: Oh my gosh. Yeah. 

Linda: To have like a Honda? You had to have a Ford. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: I mean, it’s just interesting. How we tie up our identity in these things, that do they really matter? I mean, it’s a good question to ask. 

Bob: Yeah. 

God created us to see the beautiful

Linda: Because there’s a side of it that is, you know, God created us to see things that are beautiful. I think about the sunsets he created and how they’re always changing. They’re different every single day. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: God didn’t have to do that. There are lightning bugs and it specifically in the… What is it, The Smoky Mountains? 

Bob: Oh, yeah. 

Linda: That light up simultaneously only for like a week in June, or something like this. 

Bob: Yeah. Sometime in the Summer.

Linda: God did not have to do that, but he chose to do that because he wanted us to be able to see something visually and realize how beautiful it was and what a cool thing it was, you know? So there’s part of me, that’s like, it’s okay to enjoy the good design, right? 

Bob: Of course, absolutely. 

Linda: But, I think that there is an aspect of thought in there. 

Bob: But, when we put our identity in it… 

Linda: Yes. 

Bob: And like, I have to have this or else, it would’ve… 

Linda: Or it changes who I am. 

Bob: Yeah. And that was what part of what God, I feel like helped break out of me by having me drive this old hunk of junk car for three years. 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: Is getting to the point where I was comfortable in who I am in Him. Regardless of whether I was driving a nice car or an old junker car. Because I don’t want my identity, you know, so if I’m driving a Rolls Royce, I don’t want my identity to be in that.

Linda: Right. 

Bob: I don’t want me to feel more important than someone else because I’m driving that. Or to feel like I have to do this so that people think I’m a certain thing because of that. And at the same time, if I’m driving a junker again, I don’t want to feel less than anyone else. 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: Because of that, you know?

The little incident

Linda: Well, and we did just have our car we had gotten in a little accident. And we drove around with this… 

Bob: It was Bob’s fault. 

Linda: Ding in our car, it was a big ding.

Bob: It was a big old dent. 

Linda: It’s kind of, I would like to call it my car. And the only reason is because it’s minivan and I was driving that thing around for probably six months with that ding in it. Because we were trying to sort out, we were trying to sort out some things before we got it fixed.

Bob: Well, yeah, the short… 

Linda: And it dawned on me, all these people that are seeing that ding in that car and they’re like “mm-hmm, woman driver. Can’t trust a woman driver.” And it was not my fault.

I was like, am I secure enough in who I am? And though what the truth actually is that I can drive this thing around. Or, is this just going to really bother me? And I finally just decided, I just don’t care what people think about me. They can think I’m a terrible driver. But the fact is, I didn’t do that. 

Bob: Yeah, it was definitely me. 

Linda: You are a terrible driver. I’m just kidding. That’s just what it seemed I was implying. So I just said it out loud. But no, Bob’s a great driver. 

Bob: I am a great driver. Thank you.

Linda: But you did make a mistake. 

Bob: I did. Yeah, I definitely made a mistake. And we had a big old dent in the back of our van. And the reason… 

Linda: And then you tried to fix it and it looked even worse. 

Bob: Oh yeah. 

Linda: Bob was like, I wonder if I could do this myself? And it was so much worse.

Bob: I’m a DIYer. And so I’m like, well… 

Linda: We had to get it fixed either way. 

Bob: We got a quote for it and they wanted to charge $3,100 to fix it. Andwe’re getting ready to sell it. Like we’re trying to get rid of this thing. So, I don’t want to put $3,000 into it if we’re about to sell it. 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: And so I’m like, I’m just going to see if I can hammer that thing out with the hammer.

Linda: Because like in our mind, we are either going to fix it ourselves or we’re going to have to pay it to get it fixed. So if you ruin it… 

Bob: It was going to work either way. 

Linda: It’s going to either way. And it was the thing where you had to replace the whole panel. Like it wasn’t like whatever damage we did wasn’t going to make it any worse.

Bob: Yeah, exactly. So I gave it a go and it did not work. 

Linda: Made it worse. 

Bob: Made it worse. But it took us a long time because I was not wanting to spend $3,000. But we ended up actually finding a cheaper solution. So that was good. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: But, anyway. All this to say…

Linda: Anyway, all this to say. 

Thankful for that season with the Taurus

Bob: I’m really thankful for that season with the Taurus.

Linda: Yeah. Because honestly I feel like driving around that van, I was kind of like I’ve driven an uglier thing. 

Bob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linda: I mean a minivan at least is a minivan. But a mini minivan it’s like… 

Bob: Mini minivan. 

Linda: Why would you make a car that looks like a minivan, but it’s not at a minivan? Like that is just such a funny concept. Isn’t it? 

Podcast Review

Bob: Yeah. All right. Let’s go ahead and read a review.  

Linda: All right. Let’s see what we got here. This one is titled one of my favorites. 

Bob: I like it already.

Linda: From faithful budgeter. Ooh…

“I love this podcast. It’s full of practical financial advice from a Christian perspective. I enjoy listening to Bob speak and the episodes with his wife Linda, that’s me, are especially great. I’ve found every episode helpful. But a couple that stood out to were the ones on finding your purpose and handling financial disagreements with your spouse. Definitely give it a listen.”

Bob: Awesome. 

Linda: Awesome. 

Bob: Love that. So your action item for the day, because we’ve been doing this. I’ve enjoyed just kind of giving you guys homework.

Linda: Yeah.

Bob: Like why not? 

Linda: So bang up your car and see if it’s see if you can still feel good about yourself driving around. We’ll come hit it for you with our car. Our car doesn’t matter at this point. 

Reader paid off $16K of debt just by doing this…

Bob: Oh actually real quick. I want to read something. So somebody read chapter nine in the book where I talk about this Bubble Taurus and he reached out, and I love this.

This is a guy named Josh, he said,

“I want to tell you how much you’ve inspired me while I haven’t gotten the spending plan (Real Money Method) in place. Yet our family owned a 2017 Honda Odyssey. Our kids are getting older, we just didn’t need the minivan. I heard your story about the Bubble Taurus, felt like God was telling me to sell the minivan, pay off debt and buy something cheaper.”

Linda: Wow. 

Bob: And so he said “this week, God brought another believer to our Odyssey. Then I connected with another believer and bought a 2009 Honda Fit.”

Linda: No. 

Bob: Yes. So he said “I was able to leverage the assets of the Odyssey and pay off $16,000 of debt.”

Linda: Wow. 

Bob: That’s cool.

Linda: I think we bought a 2007 Fit. 

Bob: Yeah, we had an ’07.. 

Linda: I mean….

Bob: But, but this is so cool. Like this is powerful, you know? So, so even like we were talking about these three lessons here. But, like, you actually save a lot of money too. 

Linda: So he had the minivan and then he bought a mini minivan. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: This is awesome. 

Bob: But $16,000 of debt by changing the car that you drive.

Linda: That is amazing. 

Bob: It’s so powerful. That’s really awesome. And I love that. 

Linda: And that really is such a good car. 

Bob: It is a great car.

Linda: Like if…

Bob: What, you want an another one? 

Linda: I mean, maybe. I don’t think we can fit our three kids in it. But, maybe we could as soon as all the kids are without a booster. 

Bob: Well let’s do it. Let’s sell our minivan and get… Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if we can get all the car seats. You’re right. Anyway. All right.

Your homework

Bob: So your homework for today is to sell your car. That’s it? Whatever it is, just sell it and get something cheaper. 

Linda: Just sell it. 

Bob: No, but do take this into consideration next time you’re buying a car. Or, maybe be like Josh and maybe pay off 10, 15, $20,000 of debt just by driving something a little bit older. 

Linda: That’s just fascinating, isn’t it? 

Advice from my millionaire mentor

Bob: You know, because I’ll remind you of what my millionaire mentor told me, that I’ve just never forgotten. He said there’s two areas where most Americans waste money: eating out and the cars that they drive. 

Linda: Wow. 

Bob: And if you can master both of those two things, you set yourself up for such a tremendous amount of financial success. And it’s so true. Like the decisions that we make around our cars have such a huge impact on our overall financial success.

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: So anyway, that’s a thought for the day. Hope you have a good one. 

Linda: Yep. 

Bob: We’ll see you soon. 

Linda: See ya.

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded with Jordan Grumet. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

Jordan Grumet (our new Jewish friend) is an MD (hospice doctor), host of the award-winning podcast Earn and Invest and an author.

His new book is called Taking Stock: A Hospice Doctor’s Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life.

We are diving in to some of his unconventional financial advice and how we can use it to make the most of our lives… we’re talking advice on spending, saving, and living life to the full!

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Introducing Dr. Jordan Grumet

Bob: Hey everybody. We are excited today. Linda are both here. And we’re interviewing Jordan Grumet. He’s a doctor, he’s a host of an award-winning podcast called Earn & Invest, which is a great one to check out. He’s also an author of a new book called Taking Stock. This book is really cool, there’s a lot of great things in it. And, and I love his perspective and his angle on a lot of things.

So I’m really excited to dive in and just ask a lot of questions. Anyway, So Jordan, thank you for taking a few minutes of your time and chatting with us today, brother. 

Jordan: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited for this conversation. 

Bob: Great! 

Linda: Us too. 

Bob: All right. Well, I wanna start just with your story. You’re a doctor and you’ve turned into a financial guru of some sort. It’s just interesting, because you don’t hear that every day. So, how did that happen? How’d you get into this? What’s your story?

Jordan’s story

Jordan: So when I was seven years old, my father who was a doctor also died suddenly of a brain aneurysm, like, 

Bob: Oh wow.

Linda: Oh my. 

Jordan: He had a headache one day and he was gone.

Linda: Ohh. 

Jordan: And, I wanted to be just like him, right? I’m seven years old. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Every little boy idolized is their father. Right. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And so that became my identity and I studied really, really hard. I went to as good of a college as I could go to. Ended up going to medical school in residency. I was living my best life, so to speak.

But as I continued to practice medicine, I found myself getting burned out. Like there’s a lot more paperwork, a lot more administration often that dream of rushing in the room and saving patients was just that a dream. And it was a lot harder and there’s a lot of shades of gray and a lot of sadness.

They had their own businesses, they side hustled. They did these great things. They owned real estate. 

And so, as I got to my thirties and early forties, after doing this for 10, 15 years, I started looking for a way out, I was getting burned out and I started looking at my finances. I was really, really lucky because I was born to parents who modeled great financial behavior. My mom, my stepdad had saved lots of money.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: I had all these great financial teachings. I actually did most of the right things. I just had no idea what I was doing. I was just doing what they were doing. 

Linda: Mm. 

Clueless about finances

Jordan: After bumping my head against the wall, trying to figure out if I could retire or not. And everyone told me I couldn’t… because you didn’t have nearly enough money. A guy named Jim Dahle, The White Coat Investor, he sent me his book because I was writing a medical blog at the time. And he is like, I just came out with this book, take a read, please write a review on it. I read his book and it changed my life. It gave me like the vocabulary to understand my finances. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And I knew I could leave medicine right away. Which was exciting for about a moment. And then I fell into a deep depression because I had identified as a doctor for so long. It was the thing that connected me to my father. And I, all of a sudden was talking about stepping away. So the next few years I spent time writing about actually personal finance, trying to figure out who I am, what has meaning for me, and that led to a blog and a podcast.

And if that wasn’t enough, when I got rid of everything in medicine, I didn’t like what was left… hospice or taking care of the dying. And, the funny thing was in taking care of the dying, as I did it more and more I started finding answers to questions about money in life. Things that I was talking about on my podcast already. I wasn’t talking about how you fund a 401k. I wasn’t talking about what’s a Roth IRA.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Now, when your finances are starting to be set… what does all this mean? And what does life look like after that? And I was finding my answers from the dying and that’s kind of how I ended up here today. 

Linda: Wow. 

Career burn out

Bob: Alright. Okay. I’m just gonna pinball around a little bit, cuz I, I just have couple questions. So do you find, or is it your experience in medical world that your experience, the burnout, the it not being fully what you expected is that common? 

Jordan: Yes. It’s incredibly common. Part of the issue is, and it’s almost like every major profession, right? You don’t really know what being an accountant is like until you’re an accountant. You don’t know what being a lawyer is like until your lawyer. You might watch all those great TV shows.

Bob: Yeah.

Jordan: Same with being a doctor. There’s this glorious part about being a doctor, which is about one to 2% of the time where you are, they are in the trenches, helping people. Being there for families making the life saving diagnosis. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And that’s great, but it’s really the one to 2%. The problem is the other 98% can be a lot of drudgery. And especially over the last few decades with the advent of computerized medical systems and paperwork, we just spend a lot more time in front of papers or computers and a lot less time with patients. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And so the field has changed. Plus, you really never know what something is till you get into it. So a lot of doctors are feeling very burned out right now. The problem is you come outta medical school with $500,000 of debt. It’s pretty hard to say, oh, I’m not gonna do this job that pays me six figures anymore. I’m gonna go do something else, which I’m not trained to do. It’s really hard to walk away.

Making good money but being lost when it comes to finances

Bob: Yeah. A good number of medical professionals that I’ve talked to are obviously so good at their craft. They’re so knowledgeable in what they learn about. But I’ve found a good number of them just don’t know much about money (take this quiz to see how good you are with money), even though they oftentimes have really good salaries. Again, is that common? 

Jordan: Well, you know, we grow up with this idea that being a good doctor is really front and center of our life. And really we shouldn’t waste our time thinking about all those other things. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: So a lot of us figure we’ll either hire someone else to do it, or we’ll do it on the side when we have time. But most of our real passion is being good at medicine and we almost really push everything else away.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Because it would reflect on the fact that maybe we aren’t being as good of a doctor if we’re spending time thinking about things like money. So I think a lot of us are not good at it for just that reason.

Bob: Yeah.

Linda: I’m curious how you feel about that, now being on the other side of it. Because I hear what you’re saying and I think there’s a validity to that. Of, I want to throw everything I have into helping people. But now that you’re on the other side of that and really passionate about personal finance, like how do you…

Bob: Yeah. How do you reconcile that?

Linda: Yeah. 

The power in knowing and understanding our finances

Jordan: So here’s the problem. I think when we don’t have control or at least knowledge about this one major part of our life, which is our finances. And the way that our finances can be great tools and fuel to do those things that are important to us. When we don’t feel like we have a good control of that, it really affects the way we do everything else.

For instance, when I was coming out of residency, I could have gone into hospice right away. There were a lot of reasons I didn’t, but one of the reasons is because it didn’t pay well. And so at that time I thought, okay, I can be a general internal medicine doctor. I can make a lot more. What I didn’t realize is that I’d burn out a lot faster. Maybe I would’ve been better off being a hospice doctor.

Understanding my finances, understanding financial independence and starting a good plan from day one. I could have gone and done something that was probably more a part of my purpose and identity. And I probably wouldn’t have burned out so fast. 

Linda: Interesting. 

Jordan: If I had done that, I might still be a full-time hospice doctor today, which is neither here nor there. I’m glad that I took this path and I taught me a whole new set of skills.  But, maybe I wouldn’t have burned out if I had been more thoughtful and understood my finances more so that I could make choices.

I could work a little bit less when I was getting stressed out and know that I’d be financially okay. So that just gives us power. Like knowing and understanding our finances and power in the end to really do good. Because then it’s one less thing we have to worry about and we can use that fuel to be more meaningful and purposeful.

Money is a tool, never the goal

Bob: Well, yeah. And one of the things we’re always talking to our community about is this idea that money is a tool and it’s never the goal. You know, so much of the world wants to make it a goal. And I think that’s fundamentally where you have a problem.

I recall you saying something similar in some of your writing. And it’s just so easy to lose sight of that when we’re in a world that obsesses with making it the goal. And it’s the end all and be all, until you start getting there. And you’re like, wait a minute, this… this is it?

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: This is good as it gets? 

Linda: Well, and I think it’s easy too, to do that when you are like, well, I just spent all this money and now I’m in all this debt. It really is like the cycle. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Yeah. And, but the problem is that money solves money problems. 

Bob: Yeah. 

The need for a greater sense of purpose

Jordan: But it doesn’t really give you a greater sense of meaning and purpose.

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Jordan: I think we’ll probably all agree that in the end, what builds a full and fruitful life for you is finding what that meaning and purpose are and pursuing it.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And not that kind of simple, low hanging fruit that money is. I think it’s really easy to concentrate on money because it’s a lot more difficult to sit there and say, what’s really purposeful in my life. How am I gonna achieve it? 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

It’s easier to just keep making money

Jordan: Am I going to forego extra money so that I can do this meaningful thing. And those type of conversations are really tough, it’s a lot easier to just keep making money. 

Bob: Well yeah. And I think it’s probably one of the easiest things to measure and to quantify. And so it’s some way of keeping score and feeling like, 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: …checking something off a box, like having a to-do list. It feels good checking boxes. But at the end of the day, the boxes don’t matter. Like you’re just still wasting time. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

The less measurable goals often have more meaning

Bob: And it can be the same way with money where it’s an easy way to keep score. But at the end of your life, is that the thing that really matters? Whereas whatever the thing is, whatever your purpose is in life, I think some of the most important things are really hard to measure and quantify, and that doesn’t make them less important. Actually, probably makes them more important.

Jordan: And you know what? One of the major problems with quantifiable goals are, especially when it comes to net worth… loss aversion. Like dream so much of getting to a net worth (net given is a better metric to track!) or being somewhere when it comes to money, as opposed to being happy and relaxed once we hit that number. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: We become immediately more stressed that we’re gonna lose it. In fact, probably doubly stressed than we were even before we had it. So loss aversion also keeps us at bay and takes what we look at as these money wins or these money goals. And really puts them in perspective that they don’t necessarily, again, solve our problems, especially our anxiety problems about getting somewhere.

I like that the less measurable goals often have more meaning to us. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: Yes. 

Bob: That’s good. 

End of life and the questions asked

Linda: I think you mentioned earlier, you’ve learned a lot of this, or you started finding answers through working with these hospice patients. And I’m always intrigued by that because one of my grandmothers, she was on hospice at the end of her life and we were so grateful.

So I want to say thank you, first of all. Because. we didn’t know how to care for her. But she had cancer and it was all through her body. And she came to live with my parents and I at my parents’ house. It was such a sweet time with her. It really was like the most beautiful time I’ve ever had with her. And I loved her, it wasn’t like we had a bad relationship at all. But there was something so vulnerable and just different about that time.

I’m curious if you’re working with all these people who are in that phase of life, where they’ve seen everything that they’ve done, everything that they’ve accomplished, is there a common theme?

What do I actually want?

Jordan: Well, Linda, I love your story and because it really hits it right on point. When people find out they’re dying, it actually lifts a weight off their shoulders. We live our whole lives, worrying about what society thinks. What we’re supposed to think. 

Linda: Yeah.

Jordan: What we’re supposed to achieve. It’s probably the one time in life where you’re allowed to drop all that and ask yourself a really big question. What do I actually want? 

Linda: Hmm. 

Regrets that come in to play

Jordan: So the theme that comes up over and over and over again in dying patients is at some point they look at their life, and especially if they haven’t done those things they wanted to do, they really say something to the extent of: I really regret that I never had the energy, courage or time to do, you know, whatever comes next. To climb Mt. Everest. To spend more time with that family member that had meaning for me. To build up that skill or that hobby that I really loved, but I never spent enough time doing it. Whatever it might be for you, that’s the theme.

What I never hear… no one ever says to me, I wish I worked more nights and weekends. Like no one ever says that ever. No one ever says, you know, I built up my net worth to a million dollars, but I really wanted to hit 1.5 and I didn’t get there. No one ever says that either.

Usually it’s what are the things, people or experiences that really had meaning for them that they never had the courage to pursue. And so I think that’s a really valuable lesson.

Will you need a last minute plot twist in life?

Jordan: And when people have done those things, the dying process can be very, very peaceful. But when they haven’t done those things, we look for what I call the deus ex machina. Which is like the last moment plot twist that we have in a movie or in a play that makes everything right. Like you never thought it was gonna work. And all of a sudden, you have that last minute plot twist. 

Linda: Wow. 

Jordan: That’s what happens when you haven’t reached your goals is we try to help people get to that point where they can really work through those things and, and maybe meet some of them. 

Linda: That’s beautiful.

Jordan: But what if the dying could teach us not to need the last minute plot twist? Because we were thinking about the stuff when we were much younger before we got sick. 

Linda: Yeah. 

A 3-step process to help filter your decision making

Bob: Yeah. This is something that I think about probably more than people. I’m 41 and I don’t know why. I feel like I’ve just heard this message enough and it’s like trying to sink in. But do you have any advice for all of us listening, how to absorb this? Because I feel like we’ve heard variations of this.

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: And we’ve gone through these deathbed exercises of thinking about this. But how do you pull this into everyday life to where it becomes a filter for your decisions of… should I take this job? Should I do X or Y?

Jordan: My book basically talks about what I have really narrowed down now to a three step process.

Step one

Jordan: So the first step and the step we always mistake is a lot of us look at money in our finances and try to build that first. And then we start looking at: purpose, identity and connection. So in my opinion, the first step actually is we have to really start trying to define our sense of purpose, identity, and connections. Now in the book, there’s some exercise that go through it and we can certainly talk about it. But for the point of the three step process, thinking about purpose and identity first.

Bob: Yeah. 

Step two

Jordan: Once you have that in place, then it’s time to build your financial structure. I believe everyone should go towards financial independence, but there are a few different ways to do that. And if you keep your purpose and identity in mind, you can be very thoughtful about which path you take.

Linda: Hmm. 

Bob: Yeah.

Step three

Jordan: And then the last part, which I think is the most important to answer those questions of: how much do I live in the moment now? And how much do I defer so that I’ll have enough money to live to an old age and be okay?

How should you be spending your money?

Jordan: The last is really a question. And the question is, are you afraid of dying young and not using your money the way you want to? Or dying old but broke. And if you can answer that question, it’ll actually tell you how to start looking at how you spend your money today.

If you are worried about dying young and never using your money for good, then you probably. Should be structuring your life in such a way that you take what you have left after you pay all your bills.

Let’s say you use 60% of your income to pay your bills. And you’ve got 40% left. Someone who’s worried about dying young and not being able to use that money should really be spending 30 or 40% of that on the things that are important to them now. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Right? So we would say almost Yolo, you only live once.

Use that money in a way that’s really important to you and do it now. And then maybe save the other 10% towards something like financial independence. Yeah. And so if your fear is founded and you die young, like my father you’ve lived a pretty good life and used your money accordingly. If you are wrong and you don’t die young, well then you’ve spent 30 or 40% of your income doing things that were really important to you. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Jordan: And you might not be able to retire at 45 or 55, but by saving 10% as you get to 65 or 70, you’ll be able to retire and you’ve been enjoying yourself the whole time. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: The other side of the coin is if you worried about growing to an old age and not having enough to fund it, then of that 40% that you have left over after you pay your bills, maybe you put 30% of that away towards investments in order to fund your retirement. And then you only use that 10% now to do what’s meaningful for you. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And you’ll retire early and then you’ll have all that time and all that fuel from your investments to do those things that are important. 

Bob: Yeah.

Jordan: So that’s why that third question is so important because it helps you answer the question. What do I do today?

Linda: Yep. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: That’s how you measure out. How much do I spend today versus how much do I put away for later? 

Bob: Yeah. That’s good.

Linda: Interesting. 

Is money the key to living a good life now?

Bob: Have you read Die With Zero? 

Jordan: I haven’t read it, but I know a lot about it cuz I’ve spoken to people often about it. So for a guy who hasn’t read it, but has heard a lot about it. My only fear about a book like that is that it places a lot of importance on money. It really, I think in a lot of ways, as I’ve talked to people, makes it sound like money is the key to living a good life now. I think money’s a tool it’s helpful, but I think we can also live a good life now without as much money.

And I think, especially after reading your guy’s book, Simple Money Rich Life, I see that in your writing too. Like, we can’t wait till we have money to do the important things. We gotta learn how to do those now. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: I completely agree. So in the Die With Zero book, there were aspects of it where we’re not a hundred percent on the same page. But he talked about something that I thought was interesting. This idea that there are certain phases or seasons of life where money can be spent and used more efficiently (for lack of a better term), than in other seasons.

For example, going whitewater rafting. This might be something that you do from when you have the money to go on a like five day white water rafting trip or something. Maybe in your forties to 55 range might be the ideal range. But once you’re hitting 70, it’s probably not as enjoyable. It might be more painful, more dangerous, whatever, all these different things. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Identifying the key phases

Bob: And so the point is, how can you structure the way you’re spending kind of thinking through life through different kind of key phases and identifying like where those peaks are. Where you have more money, maybe you don’t have it in your twenties, but you have more to do some of those trips at a certain point. But also not push it off too far. So that was just something that has gotten me thinking a little bit as I’m, you know, in moving into my forties now. And like, what does that look like and how should I make decisions accordingly? You know? Just an interesting concept. 

What the F.I.R.E. movement gets wrong about life and death

Bob: So out of your book, Taking Stock, there’s just a lot of great stuff in here. I would recommend people check it out because I just love your perspective. I think you have such a healthy perspective, especially seeing the hospice side of this that you’re talking to so many people.

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: And getting these answers from them. But one other question I want to ask you about is what do you think financial experts or I should say financial independence experts (F.I.R.E.= Financial Independence Retire Early) get wrong about life and about death? And is there anything you want to expand on there? 

Jordan: So I think the F.I.R.E. movement, especially really got going in 2007-2008. It was the time of the great recession. You had people who were feeling burned out about their jobs and they wanted to grind it out.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: Make as much money as they could and then get out of their job, and I think it was kind of the old school version. And so what I think they got wrong is this idea that, and I got this wrong too, was the idea that you had to sacrifice a lot in order to be happy at some later date. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: And I think people who are coming to it now are starting to realize… no, no, no. There’s a way to actually do this where you both enjoy today, as well as save for tomorrow. So there’s newer flavors of F.I.R.E., like Slow F.I.R.E. or Coast F.I.R.E.. This idea is that we can both live today, but then also have our money working for us so that it’s sometime in the future. Maybe retirement goes a little further out, but we can start having a sense of meaning and purpose today. That’s becoming more the norm. 

So I think the original F.I.R.E. movement got that wrong. That, everything has to be sacrificed and grind in the beginning. 

Bob: Yep. 

Jordan: And that work has to be bad and you don’t like it and you need to get away from it as soon as possible. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Fear and F.I.R.E.

Jordan: One of the other things that I worry about with the F.I.R.E. movement is it really focuses very much on net worth. And I think it focuses very much on the fear of not having enough. 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

The tools we have in life to start doing the things that are important to us

Jordan: I’d really like to change that focus away from the fear of not having enough, especially not having enough money. And move it more towards what tools do we have today to start doing those things that are important to us. So we look at money and you and I were just talking about money is a tool, but it’s one of many tools.

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: We have our energy. We have our youth. We have our passions. We have our connections with other people. We have our beliefs. All of these things are tools also. So I may not have a lot of that money tool, especially at the beginning of my journey.

But look at all these other tools I have. How can I use these to start doing the things I want today? Whether that’s within a job or the workplace, because some of us might be lucky enough to use those tools to love our jobs. Or to recognize our job is a way we make money.

And then build those other parts of life around so that we use those tools until we also build up that money tool. Which can again, be just one of many that can give us a little more power and strength to do the things we wanna do. So I don’t like this kind of scarcity feeling that comes with focusing so much on a net worth.

And I think the F.I.R.E. movement has to move away from that fear. I think the fear better is that we’re not living a life of meaning and purpose today. And that only partially very, very partially has to do with money. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: Yeah. 

What I do like about F.I.R.E.

Bob: You know, I’ve never been a huge F.I.R.E. component. But I do applaud the diligence and the effort and the thoughtfulness of solving a problem. And I appreciate that kind of aggressiveness. It’s solving a problem that most people didn’t think could be solved. And I’ve always loved that. 

But like with you, I agree. The aggressiveness of the hyper frugality component that seems to be synonymous with a lot of it, doesn’t really sit well with me.

Relating to paying off debt

Bob: And I completely agree with your approach and what you’re talking about there. Because it’s same way with paying off debt. We tend to view debt payoff a little bit different than maybe Dave Ramsey, who is again, very aggressive. Like, live on rice and beans for three years until you get a payoff. Or, sell everything but the kids and the dog like type of approach.

And, that’s fine. If you wanna do that, that’s fine. And it’ll go faster. But I also don’t think that you have to be miserable that whole time. I think you can space it out just a little bit longer and actually have some joy in that season. And so that tends to be how we prefer to roll and that’s how we paid off our debt. And we did it successfully. So I think you can do it either way. 

Working less

Bob: But another thing here out of that era, this is interesting for me, beacuse so much of my mindset and belief when I started my business was shaped by Tim Ferris in The 4-Hour Workweek. And that kind of ties in here a little bit because I accidentally ended up finding myself with a four hour work week. Sought out to do that and ended up accomplishing it, building a really passive business.

And got to the point where it’s like, oh, I don’t really have to work. I have a passive stream of income that’s covering all my expenses. That’s really cool in the first six months, maybe in the first year.

The struggle with working less

Bob: But after three or four years of that, it really can weigh on you. And really get depressing if you don’t have anything to do. I really struggled with that. There might have been other ways to solve this problem. But for me, I had to get back into the: get my hands dirty and start doing real work again, interacting with real people and helping solve real problems, in order for me to come out of that depressing season. And I feel like these are kind of tied together, you know? 

Jordan: Yeah. You know, it is so common for people who are aggressive about F.I.R.E., financial independence, to hit a place of real depression after they get everything on autopilot. It happened to me. It happens to people all the time. 

And in fact, I talk about someone I interacted with named Liz, a hospice doctor who actually fell into a deep depression once she got her finances in order. And she eventually got into a car accident and died. 

Bob: Oh man. 

Jordan: Probably partially because she was depressed and drinking a little more alcohol and you know, not sleeping as much and just felt totally out of sorts. 

Linda: Wow. 

Jordan: You know, money solves money problems. And in some ways we use money as a shield in order not to do the harder work of figuring out who we are and what we want. And it can lead to a really empty place when you reach this false goal. And you find that there’s emptiness there, instead of all that joy, you thought there was gonna be. 

Bob: Yeah.

Who do you want to be and what has meaning for you?

Jordan: And if you’re lucky, you get past that season and you start saying, who do I wanna be? And what has meaning for me? And then again, you use that tool as fuel to do the things that really have meaning for you. But a lot of people have trouble doing that because they didn’t spend the time upfront thinking about meaning, purpose, identity, all that important stuff. That’s actually the real goal.

So that’s where we get stuck. And I’ve seen many people and felt that depression myself, when I found out I was financially independent. And I had no idea that if I was going to walk away from this identity of being a doctor, who the heck was I gonna be? 

We are designed to work

Bob: Yeah, I just fundamentally believe that we are designed to work. And therefore it’s just part of who we need to be. And I think it’s amplified, like you’re saying by the fact of working so hard to get to this point, to reach this finish line and thinking that that’s gonna be the thing that makes you happy. When honestly the joy was found in the path to get there. Not after the finish line. 

We are built for community

Linda: Well, and I also think we were built for community. I think a lot of people think, well, I can just be financially independent and I can take care of myself and whatever. But there are so many seasons where I feel like we have needed people to help us in one way or another.

Bob: Yeah. 

Giving back

Linda: When I see the opportunity to give back and to… like a friend of ours just had a baby and I was like, you know what? I can actually take your other kids. Bring them to my house and give you some quiet time. Let you get a nap in. And I think that to me, brings so much more satisfaction than if I would to charge her for babysitting. Do you know what I mean? 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: I would rather do it for free because it feels like there’s a meaning and a purpose behind it. And that’s obviously a simple example, but. 

Bob: Yeah. No, that’s fair. 

Linda: Yeah. 

In closing

Bob: All right. Well, I appreciate you coming on and chatting about all of all this. So your new book’s called Taking Stock: Hospice doctor’s advice on financial independence, building wealth and living a regret free life. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Linda: I love it. 

Bob: I’m super excited to finish the book. I started reading it, but I want to finish it up. Thank you Jordan for taking the time and sharing your thoughts. I love your brilliant mind and excited to chat again. 

Linda: Did we mention his podcast? 

Bob: Oh yeah. Yeah. 

Linda: Good, good. 

Bob: Earn & Invest, right? 

Jordan: Yep. Earnandinvest.com. Or you can learn everything about me at jordangrumet.com. Everything about the book and everything about the podcast. I also have a medical blog that I wrote from 2005-2018, it’s linked there, too. So I’ve been in and around these things for a long time. 

Bob: Yeah, that’s great. All right, man. Well, thank you for sharing all that you do. And looking forward to chatting again soon. 

Jordan: Awesome. Thanks for having me on. 

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded with Annie F. Downs. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

We are excited to have the opportunity to sit down with Annie F. Downs. Linda and I got to talk with Annie about her amazing new book Chase The Fun.

For anybody doesn’t know, Annie is a New York times bestselling author, speaker and just all around super fun person.

She has a whole bunch of books and podcasts with “fun” in title of them. You can probably just Google “fun book” or “fun podcast” and you’ll find her. Annie is all about fun! And Chase The Fun was such a good read. I just read in about two days. So I am really excited to dive in, talk about making money fun!

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Bob Lotich: So Annie, I’m an Enneagram three with a four somewhere in there. Between you and Linda (both Enneagram sevens), I’m just gonna try to hang on. Maybe I’ll turn the notch up a little bit. See if I can get closer to seven range, but anyway.

Why having fun in life is so important

Linda Lotich: Yeah. So kind of the angle we wanna take today, if you’re listening to this podcast, wondering why are these financial people talking about having fun? The fourth part in our book (Simple Money, Rich Life) is enjoy all you can. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: And it is a super important part of life. Not every decision of life needs to be based on whether or not it’s financially the best thing.

Bob Lotich: Yeah, exactly. 

Linda Lotich: We want you to tell us. Start off with a bang. Tell us why do you think having fun in life is so important?

Annie F. Downs: Well, I’m, I’m gonna give you an example that I think you are just going to adore. So when I meet with my financial planner, when we sat down the first time I was like, Hey, listen, here’s what I’m willing to do. I’m willing to save and invest this much money. And I gave him the number. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And I said the number right after. I get to do whatever I want with . And I was like, and that window of money, I get to do whatever I want with, and then we’ll start saving again and the cycle will begin again. And I was like, I have to know when it comes to money and to finances, it obviously is important. We have to be, I want to be a good steward of what God has trusted me with.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Money isn’t the most important currency

Annie F. Downs: But money is not my favorite currency.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: It’s a currency that matters. It’s not my personal favorite currency. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Time, experiences, people. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Way more interesting currencies to me. But when it comes to finances and why it matters that we have fun is that even if… I was talking to someone recently about grief. And I’ll put finances and grief in similar categories of level of interest for what I put my time to.

Responsibly enjoying your money

Annie F. Downs: But even whales, even the deepest diving whales have got to come up to the surface or they cannot live. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: And so when you are thinking about your finances and saving and spending and being responsible, at some point you have to come up and it’s not even a reward or a punishment. It is just a deep breath of going like, “Hey, this $20 this week, we get to do whatever we want with.” 

Linda Lotich: Yep. 

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: It doesn’t have to be a million. 

Bob Lotich: Right. 

Annie F. Downs: I mean, y’all teach this. It does not have to be a million dollars that you play with. Play with $20 this week. And, you’ll realize, man, I’m willing to save more next week or double down next week because I so enjoyed having that $20 fun money this week.

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Financial milestone rewards

Bob Lotich: Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things that sets us apart from a lot of other financial experts is that it is such an important part. Because I know that for someone married to someone like Linda, we could have never made any financial progress had we not made that part of the discussion. 

Linda Lotich: Totally. 

Bob Lotich: So we had big rewards, like we’re paying off our debt. We’d pay off a $200 credit card balance, and then we’d go spend a hundred dollars going out to dinner. But we needed to do that in order to move forward.

Linda Lotich: Totally. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: That was what needed to happen. And so it’s such important thing. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes, that’s right. Because otherwise it’s just like, okay, I checked off all the responsible things. And by the time you get to the last check, another responsible thing has been added to the list (checkout SeedTime’s checklist to financial freedom). 

Linda Lotich: Yes. 

Having fun is a healthy rhythm in life

Annie F. Downs: And that is when I drive my car into the ocean and start a new life. Right? Like, “I hate everything. Let me do something fun. I hate all this.” And so if there’s always this rhythm. And again, I don’t like to think of fun as a reward. I like to think of it as a healthy rhythm in my life. How we handle our food, how we handle our money, how we handle our sleep.

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: How we handle our bodies and how we handle our fun. It’s spirit, soul, and body, right? Like, are you doing the things that make you the healthiest? 

Linda Lotich: Yes. 

Annie F. Downs: And I think fun is a really valuable one of those things. We go, “okay, well, I am working out and I am eating right for my body. I also am gonna go get on my inflatable kayak this afternoon because it’s fun.”

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And that’s gonna make me healthy, too. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, that’s so good. 

Inflatable kayaks

Linda Lotich: We have an inflatable kayak. 

Bob Lotich: We do. 

Linda Lotich: We need to get ours out. 

Annie F. Downs: Those are the best, right? 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. It’s great. 

Annie F. Downs: Wait, where’d you tell me? Where do y’all live?

Bob Lotich: We’re just down the road. We’re in Franklin. 

Annie F. Downs: Well, listen, let’s go to Percy Priest. 

Bob Lotich: Let’s go, I love it. 

Annie F. Downs: Let’s all get inflatable kayaks. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, I’ve taken my eight year old out a few times. Like, I couldn’t believe it it’s it actually works. Like it holds water… I mean it holds air. It doesn’t hold water. It keeps the water out, you know. But we’ve had blast. 

Annie F. Downs: My first ride. I wasn’t very smart cuz I blew it up and put it in the water and got in without… you live with an Enneagram seven, you get this so hard, Bob. I blew it up. I got in the water and I was like, I didn’t do this right. This isn’t comfortable. I didn’t look. So now I need to blow it up one time in my living room. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And figure out how much air it needs, and then put it on the water. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: That is awesome. 

Bob Lotich: But classic Annie is like, get it on the water first. 

Linda Lotich: Just do it. 

Annie F. Downs: And then we’ll figure out how to make…

Bob Lotich: Yeah I think mine had five or six different pockets in to fill with air. 

Annie F. Downs: What? Yes!

Bob Lotich: So, it makes sense. 

Linda Lotich: Who knew? 

The key to generosity is to make giving fun

Bob Lotich: So I want to ask you about something. Because you know, a big part of what we do here and our mission and call in life is to give and to give on significant levels. That’s like what we’ve dreamed about forever. We want to give away millions of dollars. Okay? 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: So giving is such an important part of what we’re doing. And I grew up hating giving. Because I always felt like it was a sense of obligation. A sense of I have to do this. Sense of… of course, no fun. You know, like Jesus said it is more blessed to give than receive. I thought he was just being foolish and he’d never gotten a good gift or something. 

Annie F. Downs: He never gotten a good gift. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. Like it just made no sense to me at all. So I’m curious for you, because I discovered (we both discovered) that giving has now become like our favorite thing to do. But it’s been that way because we found ways to make it fun. And we found ways to make giving something that’s really exciting. So that helped us achieve or move in the direction of a really important goal for us (giving our age as a percentage). So I’m curious for you, have you observed that there are things in your life where it’s like, this is who I want to become? These are things that I want to achieve? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: And that fun has helped you get there? 

How not to be attached to money

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, totally. I mean, even when I think about giving, one of the reasons I love that money isn’t my favorite currency is I don’t feel attached to it. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: So I’m like, oh, we’re not gonna let money be the thing that keeps anybody from doing the thing they wanna do.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? Whether it’s fun or whether it’s on mission or whether it’s getting out of poverty, I’m like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no! Money’s not gonna be the thing that stops us.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so if I’ve got some money and that’s what you need to get done the thing you want to do, that sounds fun to you… let’s go!

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Your co-worker is The Lord

Annie F. Downs: The thing about the Lord is like if we will work hard, the Lord and I both have a job here. 

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? 

Bob Lotich: Exactly. 

Annie F. Downs: And so if I will work hard and keep working and it’s a cycle, I’m not gonna stop making money in my job. As far as I can see.

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: Now I’m saving for an emergency, all the things, all the things. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, yeah. 

We’re generous because of others’ generosity towards us

Annie F. Downs: But I’m like, “Hey, listen, money’s gonna come and go for the rest of our lives. Being generous. Is one of the most fun things we get to do.” Because when people have been generous to me and allowed me to be a part of something fun with them. You’re like, how can I do this for someone? I mean, it’s a little bit addicting. 

Bob Lotich: Oh yeah.

Annie F. Downs: To be like… 

Bob Lotich: Exactly. 

Annie F. Downs: That money’s gone and I don’t care. And I’ll tell you, the reason I learned that Bob, is I used to teach elementary school.

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Lack of income and not paying attention to money

Annie F. Downs: And in the transition from elementary school teaching to this full time job, I had about a four year window where I did not make a lot of money. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And in fact I wasn’t paying attention (here’s how to budget for beginners). I was just… shocking neither of y’all. I was just like, do I have enough for this month? Do I have a little bit to… 

Bob Lotich: That’s really common. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. This is like in 2009. My dad’s a CPA and I get to the end of the year and do my taxes. And he’s like, “$18,000, Annie?” And I was like, “Are you kidding?” And he was like, “You made $18,000 this year. How did you survive?” And I thought, I actually don’t know, number one. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Number two, I thought back through the year and I thought, oh, it’s because on Sunday nights we all ate dinner together. And everybody brought one thing to share.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And it’s because that family let me eat dinner with them once a week. It was all because of generosity. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so then I went, oh, at some point when I have a job again, whatever the next job is (which ended up being this). And at that point I was like , do I need to go back to teaching?

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: You know, you think you’re not making money as a teacher, till you’re not making money as a waitress at a restaurant or whatever. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so that just made being generous easier because I recognized that I survived financially at a time where I shouldn’t have because of other people’s generosity. And that’s so fun. It’s so fun. It’s so so fun. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. No, I know. It’s so rich. It’s just kind of been one of our absolute favorite things through all that. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Have fun, but don’t go into debt

Bob Lotich: It’s really cool to hear your side of that. And I mean, you came on like very much saying that, you don’t have a lot to add financially to the conversation. But through the book, like I’ve noticed you very much are… be wise, but like have fun. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Don’t go into a ton of debt to do it (here’s what the Bible says about debt). And I’m just curious, how do you balance that in your own life? You know, because you are an Ennegram seven. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Presumably very driven by fun, just like Linda is. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: And so how do you personally balance that and make some of those tough decisions for yourself?

Annie F. Downs: Well, if I’m telling you the whole truth, I have a little bit easier life because I’m not married yet and don’t have kids yet. And so there really isn’t anyone else I have to run my money by. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: But I have set up a system (you can too in our Real Money Method budgeting course!) because I’m really responsible to the people who work with me.

Bob Lotich: Yeah.

Recognizing your responsibilities

Annie F. Downs: I feel a high level responsibility to my employees. And I’m like, “well, I can’t blow through all this money doing something fun because their ability to be generous is dependent on my responsibility.”

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? And I want my people to be really generous with their time and with their money. And so I have to be responsible with my time and my money. So that’s part of it is that I have employees that depend on me being responsible. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

It’s not fun to be upside down financially

Annie F. Downs: And the other part is that it really is not fun to be upside down financially because you feel trapped. Right? 

Bob Lotich: That’s true. That’s true. 

Annie F. Downs: And that’s what everybody in some way or another does not enjoy feeling trapped. For Ennegram sevens, particularly it’s do not trap me in this pain. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: But everybody has an emotional jail that they don’t wanna be in. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And for me, if I’m upside down financially and I’m not paying attention and I get behind, well, that actually is trapping me from getting to do what I wanna do next.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

It’s easier to say small “no’s” now, than big “no’s” down the road

Annie F. Downs: And so it’s a little bit easier to say small no’s, so that I don’t have to say big no’s down the road. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. We Didn’t come from silver spoon growing up type of thing.

Annie F. Downs: Right. 

Bob Lotich: We were both very, very broke. We understand the feeling of being broke, and it not being fun. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: And that honestly was so much of my motivation. And cuz I’m not a full blown seven, like you guys I’m learning, I’m trying to let you rub off on me. But that was always a big motivator for me. Like I loved how you said that. Like the little no, or the little, yes. However you worded it. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: To get the big one. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Cause that’s what it was. That’s what longer term thinking is. And I think that’s just part of maturity is realizing, all right I can say no to some small things in order to be able to get some bigger things later.

When saying yes to the big thing is ok before you say no to the small things

Annie F. Downs: Yes. Or say “yes” to the big thing. So I just finished like what I called the best summer ever. There were a lot of concerts and a lot of trips. And I knew before I started, “Hey, Annie, you’re getting to say yes’s this summer that are gonna require no’s in the fall.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? And so it can be either way. But because I knew I had some big “yes’s” in the summer, I went ahead. And it is maturity. I mean, I’m 42. So it’s certainly at this point “please Lord learn how to say no to some things, Annie.” Right? And so because of that, I can go okay, with all the currencies that matter to me. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: I got to say “yes” with a lot of currencies this summer with time, with finances, with friends that will require me saying “no” in the future. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And what I’ll have to say to myself is, “Hey, that Chatbook you made of all the pictures from this summer. Go look at that again, because that was the, yes that’s making this be a no. And that is okay.” 

Finding fun and joy in suffering, pain and heartache

Linda Lotich: Yeah. I’m curious in a job that you don’t wanna do. So I was telling Bob, since you are a fan of Mary Poppins. In every job that must be done… 

Bob Lotich: We saw all the Mary Poppins all throughout the book. I’m like, all right. 

Linda Lotich: There’s an element of fun. You find the fun and snap, the jobs a game. Right? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Linda Lotich: So how do you find the fun in the things that you don’t wanna do? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. I mean, part of it is you just have to be a person who does things you don’t wanna do. Because I think a lot of times people think, oh, well, if it’s gonna be fun, then I can erase the responsibility or the pain.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Annie F. Downs: Or the grieving or the hard.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm.

Annie F. Downs: And that’s not it. It is the Mary Poppins theme of, can you somehow gamify any part of this?

Linda Lotich: Right. 

Annie F. Downs: So even this morning I was fun coaching someone and she lost her mom recently. 

Linda Lotich: Oh. 

Annie F. Downs: And she said, I want to go through and make a bucket list of all the things my mom and I wanted to do that we didn’t get to do. And what we spent the whole time talking about was are you willing to feel pain in the joy? And are you willing to feel joy even if there’s pain? 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: A lot of times people have learned, a lot of my friends have learned, oh, even in this joy, there’s gonna be some sadness. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: That’s kind of the easier one. The harder one is, oh man. Even in this sadness, I’m allowed to feel joy.

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: I mean, scripture says even in laughter the heart may ache (10 encouraging Bible verses). 

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Annie F. Downs: Well, even in heartache, there may be laughter. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

You need to do fun little things

Annie F. Downs: Right? And so it’s holding both of those things. So in a job that is not fun in a season that is a lot of pain or suffering, it is doing the little fun things. It is a 30 minute block in your week.

Somebody yesterday, a teacher who’s trying to help her staff have a really good year. I. What if it is as simple as this is the year, you’ll find the best guacamole in your town. What if that’s it all you gotta do is find the best guacamole. 

Linda Lotich: I love that. 

Annie F. Downs: You can go once a month. You can go once a week. So it’s finding these little things. I had to go to the bank for something else, and I thought I should just get a couple of $10 bills. And on Friday after work, hand them to my coworkers and go, “Hey, just do something fun this weekend that’s $10.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And it may not get ’em real far, but it can get ’em to a movie. 

Linda Lotich: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: And it can get ’em coke icees for their family. 

Bob Lotich: Well and to get them thinking. 

Annie F. Downs: That’s right. 

Bob Lotich: And I think that’s so important. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Thinking about fun is a good step

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That’s it. That’s it just thinking about fun is a good step. So Linda that’s part of it, is going like, okay, this part of my job I don’t love. How can I have fun? So when I meet with my financial planner, not my favorite part of my life, but his office is next to Frothy Monkey. 

Linda Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: Which is a coffee shop here that it’s actually the one right by y’all and Franklin. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so my promise to myself is, “Hey, when you go to this meeting, you also get to go into the Frothy Monkey that you really like.”

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so it’s just finding those little, again gamification or adding a little bit of fun where you may not find it otherwise. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: It helps lead to a healthier life. 

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

What does Annie F. Downs do for fun?

Bob Lotich: All right. So you mentioned kayaking, I’m curious. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Just cuz I’m curious, and why not? And you asked this question on your podcast That Sounds Fun, so I’m gonna ask you, like what do you do for fun? Like what, what does Annie enjoy? 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. Oh man you know me well enough at this point and also because you live with Linda, if I just say everything. I mean, that’s just the truth. It’s just, I think everything’s fun. But currently what’s left on my best summer ever list is I get to see Hamilton this week. Cuz I’m a TPAC season ticket holder. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: And because that really that’s something I prioritize, it really matters to me is the arts. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Uhhuh. 

Annie F. Downs: And so in my budget, that has fit in my budget for a couple of years and I love it. So I get to see Hamilton this week. I still have a float that is a Pegasus. Her name is Pearl. The summertime Pegasus. I have not blown her up yet, so. 

Bob Lotich: Okay, I’m not getting it. A pool thing that you get on in the pool? 

Linda Lotich: Pool float? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Yeah. Pool float. Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Okay. 

Annie F. Downs: She literally holds three adults comfortably. She is massive. And don’t, you know, that I keep her in my trunk. She is in my trunk all year long. Cause you’re like, you don’t know when you might need a float. I keep a blanket, a frisbee, and a float in my trunk. 

Enneagrams and relationships

Linda Lotich: What’s great about being married to an Enneagram three, as a seven, is I will like buy the giant float and then I go, I don’t know how to blow this up. And then my three over here is like, oh, I have an air pump.

Annie F. Downs: That’s it. That’s exactly right. 

Linda Lotich: He pulls out that thing and we’re in business within minutes. 

Annie F. Downs: Listen, male threes are one of my favorite group of people because they will take an Enneagram seven and go like, “Oh, you wanna have fun? We’re gonna have the best fun.” 

Bob Lotich: This is so true. I remember reading this article about how the three seven combination is really powerful.

Annie F. Downs: It’s is super powerful. 

Bob Lotich: So you need to find a three. That’s what you need, Annie. 

Annie F. Downs: I, listen, I’ve dated a few of them. I’ve gone through a few of you and it just hasn’t happened, haven’t locked it down. I mean, that your strengths and our strengths work together so beautifully. So that’s what sounds fun to me. And because it’s summer and it’s hot outside, I grew up in Georgia. And I’ve only lived in Georgia and Tennessee with a little stint in Scotland for a minute. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so I love being hot. So I’m like get me outside every day. Let’s just be outside before it gets dark and cold. And then all January I cross stitch and watch Netflix.

Linda Lotich: Hilarious. 

Bob Lotich: That’s so good. 

The funnest thing on Annie F. Downs’ desk

Linda Lotich: Okay. One more question, cuz I know you gotta go on a second here. Okay. What is the funnest thing on your desk within arms reach? 

Annie F. Downs: Probably, my lipstick is what I love the most because I’m just like, why not? We should… 

Linda Lotich: What kind? 

Annie F. Downs: This is Bare Minerals and the color is scandal. Get ready, Linda. Scandal. But what I have on my desk in my office, I’m in my podcast studio, in my office I have like one of those little wooden birds that is like a thing for your brain that you can rub.

Linda Lotich: Uhhuh. 

Annie F. Downs: And it is like real, real, smooth, all around. So I love that. I keep a pair of sunglasses near me. I dunno. You just never know your…

Bob Lotich: Just in case, just in case. 

Linda Lotich: You never know.

Annie F. Downs: Just in case. You dunno if someone’s like get in the car, we’re going to get Coke icees. And I’m gonna wish I had my sunglasses. 

Linda Lotich: You’re ready. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That’s it. That’s exactly right. 

The hardest way to buy Chase The Fun

Bob Lotich: I love it. All right. So I’m assuming I know the answer. How about this? What is, what would be the hardest way to go about buying this book? 

Annie F. Downs: Oh, that’s a great question. The hardest way to find a copy of Chase The Fun. 

Linda Lotich: Make it funny. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. The hardest way would be to drive to a Walmart in a different city. 

Bob Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: And get it from there. So the easiest way is online or at your local Walmart or Target. The hardest way is getting in your car and passing one or two Walmarts or Targets.

Bob Lotich: Oh, yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And going to the next one. 

Bob Lotich: There you go. I like that idea. 

Annie F. Downs: To get the book that you want. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, so the book..

Linda Lotich: Is awesome.

Bob Lotich: I mean, the devotional is Chase The Fun. But, the precursor to this was That Sounds Fun, which is the same name as your podcast. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: And so if you were someone who is the starchy kind and you need a little bit of air in tires, I think check out either of these books. I think they’re really gonna help you. Annie, as you can tell, is infectious and just carries a lot in this area. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

In closing

Bob Lotich: So I encourage you to check all this out, check out the podcast. Annie, thank you for taking a few minutes and chatting with us today. 

Annie F. Downs: Oh, I loved it. Y’all are the best. Thanks so much for having me. We’re taking our kayaks out. I’m ready. 

Bob Lotich: Let’s do it.