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The Blog

Making money FUN with Annie F Downs

August 12, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded with Annie F. Downs. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

enjoying your money with Annie Downs

We are excited to have the opportunity to sit down with Annie F. Downs. Linda and I got to talk with Annie about her amazing new book Chase The Fun.

For anybody doesn’t know, Annie is a New York times bestselling author, speaker and just all around super fun person.

She has a whole bunch of books and podcasts with “fun” in title of them. You can probably just Google “fun book” or “fun podcast” and you’ll find her. Annie is all about fun! And Chase The Fun was such a good read. I just read in about two days. So I am really excited to dive in, talk about making money fun!

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Bob Lotich: So Annie, I’m an Enneagram three with a four somewhere in there. Between you and Linda (both Enneagram sevens), I’m just gonna try to hang on. Maybe I’ll turn the notch up a little bit. See if I can get closer to seven range, but anyway.

Why having fun in life is so important

Linda Lotich: Yeah. So kind of the angle we wanna take today, if you’re listening to this podcast, wondering why are these financial people talking about having fun? The fourth part in our book (Simple Money, Rich Life) is enjoy all you can. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: And it is a super important part of life. Not every decision of life needs to be based on whether or not it’s financially the best thing.

Bob Lotich: Yeah, exactly. 

Linda Lotich: We want you to tell us. Start off with a bang. Tell us why do you think having fun in life is so important?

Annie F. Downs: Well, I’m, I’m gonna give you an example that I think you are just going to adore. So when I meet with my financial planner, when we sat down the first time I was like, Hey, listen, here’s what I’m willing to do. I’m willing to save and invest this much money. And I gave him the number. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And I said the number right after. I get to do whatever I want with . And I was like, and that window of money, I get to do whatever I want with, and then we’ll start saving again and the cycle will begin again. And I was like, I have to know when it comes to money and to finances, it obviously is important. We have to be, I want to be a good steward of what God has trusted me with.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Money isn’t the most important currency

Annie F. Downs: But money is not my favorite currency.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: It’s a currency that matters. It’s not my personal favorite currency. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Time, experiences, people. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Way more interesting currencies to me. But when it comes to finances and why it matters that we have fun is that even if… I was talking to someone recently about grief. And I’ll put finances and grief in similar categories of level of interest for what I put my time to.

Responsibly enjoying your money

Annie F. Downs: But even whales, even the deepest diving whales have got to come up to the surface or they cannot live. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: And so when you are thinking about your finances and saving and spending and being responsible, at some point you have to come up and it’s not even a reward or a punishment. It is just a deep breath of going like, “Hey, this $20 this week, we get to do whatever we want with.” 

Linda Lotich: Yep. 

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: It doesn’t have to be a million. 

Bob Lotich: Right. 

Annie F. Downs: I mean, y’all teach this. It does not have to be a million dollars that you play with. Play with $20 this week. And, you’ll realize, man, I’m willing to save more next week or double down next week because I so enjoyed having that $20 fun money this week.

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Financial milestone rewards

Bob Lotich: Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things that sets us apart from a lot of other financial experts is that it is such an important part. Because I know that for someone married to someone like Linda, we could have never made any financial progress had we not made that part of the discussion. 

Linda Lotich: Totally. 

Bob Lotich: So we had big rewards, like we’re paying off our debt. We’d pay off a $200 credit card balance, and then we’d go spend a hundred dollars going out to dinner. But we needed to do that in order to move forward.

Linda Lotich: Totally. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: That was what needed to happen. And so it’s such important thing. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes, that’s right. Because otherwise it’s just like, okay, I checked off all the responsible things. And by the time you get to the last check, another responsible thing has been added to the list (checkout SeedTime’s checklist to financial freedom). 

Linda Lotich: Yes. 

Having fun is a healthy rhythm in life

Annie F. Downs: And that is when I drive my car into the ocean and start a new life. Right? Like, “I hate everything. Let me do something fun. I hate all this.” And so if there’s always this rhythm. And again, I don’t like to think of fun as a reward. I like to think of it as a healthy rhythm in my life. How we handle our food, how we handle our money, how we handle our sleep.

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: How we handle our bodies and how we handle our fun. It’s spirit, soul, and body, right? Like, are you doing the things that make you the healthiest? 

Linda Lotich: Yes. 

Annie F. Downs: And I think fun is a really valuable one of those things. We go, “okay, well, I am working out and I am eating right for my body. I also am gonna go get on my inflatable kayak this afternoon because it’s fun.”

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And that’s gonna make me healthy, too. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, that’s so good. 

Inflatable kayaks

Linda Lotich: We have an inflatable kayak. 

Bob Lotich: We do. 

Linda Lotich: We need to get ours out. 

Annie F. Downs: Those are the best, right? 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. It’s great. 

Annie F. Downs: Wait, where’d you tell me? Where do y’all live?

Bob Lotich: We’re just down the road. We’re in Franklin. 

Annie F. Downs: Well, listen, let’s go to Percy Priest. 

Bob Lotich: Let’s go, I love it. 

Annie F. Downs: Let’s all get inflatable kayaks. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, I’ve taken my eight year old out a few times. Like, I couldn’t believe it it’s it actually works. Like it holds water… I mean it holds air. It doesn’t hold water. It keeps the water out, you know. But we’ve had blast. 

Annie F. Downs: My first ride. I wasn’t very smart cuz I blew it up and put it in the water and got in without… you live with an Enneagram seven, you get this so hard, Bob. I blew it up. I got in the water and I was like, I didn’t do this right. This isn’t comfortable. I didn’t look. So now I need to blow it up one time in my living room. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And figure out how much air it needs, and then put it on the water. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: That is awesome. 

Bob Lotich: But classic Annie is like, get it on the water first. 

Linda Lotich: Just do it. 

Annie F. Downs: And then we’ll figure out how to make…

Bob Lotich: Yeah I think mine had five or six different pockets in to fill with air. 

Annie F. Downs: What? Yes!

Bob Lotich: So, it makes sense. 

Linda Lotich: Who knew? 

The key to generosity is to make giving fun

Bob Lotich: So I want to ask you about something. Because you know, a big part of what we do here and our mission and call in life is to give and to give on significant levels. That’s like what we’ve dreamed about forever. We want to give away millions of dollars. Okay? 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: So giving is such an important part of what we’re doing. And I grew up hating giving. Because I always felt like it was a sense of obligation. A sense of I have to do this. Sense of… of course, no fun. You know, like Jesus said it is more blessed to give than receive. I thought he was just being foolish and he’d never gotten a good gift or something. 

Annie F. Downs: He never gotten a good gift. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. Like it just made no sense to me at all. So I’m curious for you, because I discovered (we both discovered) that giving has now become like our favorite thing to do. But it’s been that way because we found ways to make it fun. And we found ways to make giving something that’s really exciting. So that helped us achieve or move in the direction of a really important goal for us (giving our age as a percentage). So I’m curious for you, have you observed that there are things in your life where it’s like, this is who I want to become? These are things that I want to achieve? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: And that fun has helped you get there? 

How not to be attached to money

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, totally. I mean, even when I think about giving, one of the reasons I love that money isn’t my favorite currency is I don’t feel attached to it. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: So I’m like, oh, we’re not gonna let money be the thing that keeps anybody from doing the thing they wanna do.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? Whether it’s fun or whether it’s on mission or whether it’s getting out of poverty, I’m like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no! Money’s not gonna be the thing that stops us.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so if I’ve got some money and that’s what you need to get done the thing you want to do, that sounds fun to you… let’s go!

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Your co-worker is The Lord

Annie F. Downs: The thing about the Lord is like if we will work hard, the Lord and I both have a job here. 

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? 

Bob Lotich: Exactly. 

Annie F. Downs: And so if I will work hard and keep working and it’s a cycle, I’m not gonna stop making money in my job. As far as I can see.

Bob Lotich: Yep. 

Annie F. Downs: Now I’m saving for an emergency, all the things, all the things. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, yeah. 

We’re generous because of others’ generosity towards us

Annie F. Downs: But I’m like, “Hey, listen, money’s gonna come and go for the rest of our lives. Being generous. Is one of the most fun things we get to do.” Because when people have been generous to me and allowed me to be a part of something fun with them. You’re like, how can I do this for someone? I mean, it’s a little bit addicting. 

Bob Lotich: Oh yeah.

Annie F. Downs: To be like… 

Bob Lotich: Exactly. 

Annie F. Downs: That money’s gone and I don’t care. And I’ll tell you, the reason I learned that Bob, is I used to teach elementary school.

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Lack of income and not paying attention to money

Annie F. Downs: And in the transition from elementary school teaching to this full time job, I had about a four year window where I did not make a lot of money. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And in fact I wasn’t paying attention (here’s how to budget for beginners). I was just… shocking neither of y’all. I was just like, do I have enough for this month? Do I have a little bit to… 

Bob Lotich: That’s really common. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. This is like in 2009. My dad’s a CPA and I get to the end of the year and do my taxes. And he’s like, “$18,000, Annie?” And I was like, “Are you kidding?” And he was like, “You made $18,000 this year. How did you survive?” And I thought, I actually don’t know, number one. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Number two, I thought back through the year and I thought, oh, it’s because on Sunday nights we all ate dinner together. And everybody brought one thing to share.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And it’s because that family let me eat dinner with them once a week. It was all because of generosity. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so then I went, oh, at some point when I have a job again, whatever the next job is (which ended up being this). And at that point I was like , do I need to go back to teaching?

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: You know, you think you’re not making money as a teacher, till you’re not making money as a waitress at a restaurant or whatever. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so that just made being generous easier because I recognized that I survived financially at a time where I shouldn’t have because of other people’s generosity. And that’s so fun. It’s so fun. It’s so so fun. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. No, I know. It’s so rich. It’s just kind of been one of our absolute favorite things through all that. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Have fun, but don’t go into debt

Bob Lotich: It’s really cool to hear your side of that. And I mean, you came on like very much saying that, you don’t have a lot to add financially to the conversation. But through the book, like I’ve noticed you very much are… be wise, but like have fun. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Don’t go into a ton of debt to do it (here’s what the Bible says about debt). And I’m just curious, how do you balance that in your own life? You know, because you are an Ennegram seven. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Presumably very driven by fun, just like Linda is. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: And so how do you personally balance that and make some of those tough decisions for yourself?

Annie F. Downs: Well, if I’m telling you the whole truth, I have a little bit easier life because I’m not married yet and don’t have kids yet. And so there really isn’t anyone else I have to run my money by. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: But I have set up a system (you can too in our Real Money Method budgeting course!) because I’m really responsible to the people who work with me.

Bob Lotich: Yeah.

Recognizing your responsibilities

Annie F. Downs: I feel a high level responsibility to my employees. And I’m like, “well, I can’t blow through all this money doing something fun because their ability to be generous is dependent on my responsibility.”

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? And I want my people to be really generous with their time and with their money. And so I have to be responsible with my time and my money. So that’s part of it is that I have employees that depend on me being responsible. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

It’s not fun to be upside down financially

Annie F. Downs: And the other part is that it really is not fun to be upside down financially because you feel trapped. Right? 

Bob Lotich: That’s true. That’s true. 

Annie F. Downs: And that’s what everybody in some way or another does not enjoy feeling trapped. For Ennegram sevens, particularly it’s do not trap me in this pain. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: But everybody has an emotional jail that they don’t wanna be in. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And for me, if I’m upside down financially and I’m not paying attention and I get behind, well, that actually is trapping me from getting to do what I wanna do next.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm.

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

It’s easier to say small “no’s” now, than big “no’s” down the road

Annie F. Downs: And so it’s a little bit easier to say small no’s, so that I don’t have to say big no’s down the road. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. We Didn’t come from silver spoon growing up type of thing.

Annie F. Downs: Right. 

Bob Lotich: We were both very, very broke. We understand the feeling of being broke, and it not being fun. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: And that honestly was so much of my motivation. And cuz I’m not a full blown seven, like you guys I’m learning, I’m trying to let you rub off on me. But that was always a big motivator for me. Like I loved how you said that. Like the little no, or the little, yes. However you worded it. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: To get the big one. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Cause that’s what it was. That’s what longer term thinking is. And I think that’s just part of maturity is realizing, all right I can say no to some small things in order to be able to get some bigger things later.

When saying yes to the big thing is ok before you say no to the small things

Annie F. Downs: Yes. Or say “yes” to the big thing. So I just finished like what I called the best summer ever. There were a lot of concerts and a lot of trips. And I knew before I started, “Hey, Annie, you’re getting to say yes’s this summer that are gonna require no’s in the fall.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: Right? And so it can be either way. But because I knew I had some big “yes’s” in the summer, I went ahead. And it is maturity. I mean, I’m 42. So it’s certainly at this point “please Lord learn how to say no to some things, Annie.” Right? And so because of that, I can go okay, with all the currencies that matter to me. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: I got to say “yes” with a lot of currencies this summer with time, with finances, with friends that will require me saying “no” in the future. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And what I’ll have to say to myself is, “Hey, that Chatbook you made of all the pictures from this summer. Go look at that again, because that was the, yes that’s making this be a no. And that is okay.” 

Finding fun and joy in suffering, pain and heartache

Linda Lotich: Yeah. I’m curious in a job that you don’t wanna do. So I was telling Bob, since you are a fan of Mary Poppins. In every job that must be done… 

Bob Lotich: We saw all the Mary Poppins all throughout the book. I’m like, all right. 

Linda Lotich: There’s an element of fun. You find the fun and snap, the jobs a game. Right? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Linda Lotich: So how do you find the fun in the things that you don’t wanna do? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. I mean, part of it is you just have to be a person who does things you don’t wanna do. Because I think a lot of times people think, oh, well, if it’s gonna be fun, then I can erase the responsibility or the pain.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Annie F. Downs: Or the grieving or the hard.

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm.

Annie F. Downs: And that’s not it. It is the Mary Poppins theme of, can you somehow gamify any part of this?

Linda Lotich: Right. 

Annie F. Downs: So even this morning I was fun coaching someone and she lost her mom recently. 

Linda Lotich: Oh. 

Annie F. Downs: And she said, I want to go through and make a bucket list of all the things my mom and I wanted to do that we didn’t get to do. And what we spent the whole time talking about was are you willing to feel pain in the joy? And are you willing to feel joy even if there’s pain? 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: A lot of times people have learned, a lot of my friends have learned, oh, even in this joy, there’s gonna be some sadness. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: That’s kind of the easier one. The harder one is, oh man. Even in this sadness, I’m allowed to feel joy.

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: I mean, scripture says even in laughter the heart may ache (10 encouraging Bible verses). 

Bob Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

Annie F. Downs: Well, even in heartache, there may be laughter. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

You need to do fun little things

Annie F. Downs: Right? And so it’s holding both of those things. So in a job that is not fun in a season that is a lot of pain or suffering, it is doing the little fun things. It is a 30 minute block in your week.

Somebody yesterday, a teacher who’s trying to help her staff have a really good year. I. What if it is as simple as this is the year, you’ll find the best guacamole in your town. What if that’s it all you gotta do is find the best guacamole. 

Linda Lotich: I love that. 

Annie F. Downs: You can go once a month. You can go once a week. So it’s finding these little things. I had to go to the bank for something else, and I thought I should just get a couple of $10 bills. And on Friday after work, hand them to my coworkers and go, “Hey, just do something fun this weekend that’s $10.” 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And it may not get ’em real far, but it can get ’em to a movie. 

Linda Lotich: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: And it can get ’em coke icees for their family. 

Bob Lotich: Well and to get them thinking. 

Annie F. Downs: That’s right. 

Bob Lotich: And I think that’s so important. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

Thinking about fun is a good step

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That’s it. That’s it just thinking about fun is a good step. So Linda that’s part of it, is going like, okay, this part of my job I don’t love. How can I have fun? So when I meet with my financial planner, not my favorite part of my life, but his office is next to Frothy Monkey. 

Linda Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: Which is a coffee shop here that it’s actually the one right by y’all and Franklin. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so my promise to myself is, “Hey, when you go to this meeting, you also get to go into the Frothy Monkey that you really like.”

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so it’s just finding those little, again gamification or adding a little bit of fun where you may not find it otherwise. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: It helps lead to a healthier life. 

Linda Lotich: Mm-hmm. 

What does Annie F. Downs do for fun?

Bob Lotich: All right. So you mentioned kayaking, I’m curious. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: Just cuz I’m curious, and why not? And you asked this question on your podcast That Sounds Fun, so I’m gonna ask you, like what do you do for fun? Like what, what does Annie enjoy? 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. Oh man you know me well enough at this point and also because you live with Linda, if I just say everything. I mean, that’s just the truth. It’s just, I think everything’s fun. But currently what’s left on my best summer ever list is I get to see Hamilton this week. Cuz I’m a TPAC season ticket holder. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: And because that really that’s something I prioritize, it really matters to me is the arts. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. 

Linda Lotich: Uhhuh. 

Annie F. Downs: And so in my budget, that has fit in my budget for a couple of years and I love it. So I get to see Hamilton this week. I still have a float that is a Pegasus. Her name is Pearl. The summertime Pegasus. I have not blown her up yet, so. 

Bob Lotich: Okay, I’m not getting it. A pool thing that you get on in the pool? 

Linda Lotich: Pool float? 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Yeah. Pool float. Yeah. 

Bob Lotich: Okay. 

Annie F. Downs: She literally holds three adults comfortably. She is massive. And don’t, you know, that I keep her in my trunk. She is in my trunk all year long. Cause you’re like, you don’t know when you might need a float. I keep a blanket, a frisbee, and a float in my trunk. 

Enneagrams and relationships

Linda Lotich: What’s great about being married to an Enneagram three, as a seven, is I will like buy the giant float and then I go, I don’t know how to blow this up. And then my three over here is like, oh, I have an air pump.

Annie F. Downs: That’s it. That’s exactly right. 

Linda Lotich: He pulls out that thing and we’re in business within minutes. 

Annie F. Downs: Listen, male threes are one of my favorite group of people because they will take an Enneagram seven and go like, “Oh, you wanna have fun? We’re gonna have the best fun.” 

Bob Lotich: This is so true. I remember reading this article about how the three seven combination is really powerful.

Annie F. Downs: It’s is super powerful. 

Bob Lotich: So you need to find a three. That’s what you need, Annie. 

Annie F. Downs: I, listen, I’ve dated a few of them. I’ve gone through a few of you and it just hasn’t happened, haven’t locked it down. I mean, that your strengths and our strengths work together so beautifully. So that’s what sounds fun to me. And because it’s summer and it’s hot outside, I grew up in Georgia. And I’ve only lived in Georgia and Tennessee with a little stint in Scotland for a minute. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah. Yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And so I love being hot. So I’m like get me outside every day. Let’s just be outside before it gets dark and cold. And then all January I cross stitch and watch Netflix.

Linda Lotich: Hilarious. 

Bob Lotich: That’s so good. 

The funnest thing on Annie F. Downs’ desk

Linda Lotich: Okay. One more question, cuz I know you gotta go on a second here. Okay. What is the funnest thing on your desk within arms reach? 

Annie F. Downs: Probably, my lipstick is what I love the most because I’m just like, why not? We should… 

Linda Lotich: What kind? 

Annie F. Downs: This is Bare Minerals and the color is scandal. Get ready, Linda. Scandal. But what I have on my desk in my office, I’m in my podcast studio, in my office I have like one of those little wooden birds that is like a thing for your brain that you can rub.

Linda Lotich: Uhhuh. 

Annie F. Downs: And it is like real, real, smooth, all around. So I love that. I keep a pair of sunglasses near me. I dunno. You just never know your…

Bob Lotich: Just in case, just in case. 

Linda Lotich: You never know.

Annie F. Downs: Just in case. You dunno if someone’s like get in the car, we’re going to get Coke icees. And I’m gonna wish I had my sunglasses. 

Linda Lotich: You’re ready. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That’s it. That’s exactly right. 

The hardest way to buy Chase The Fun

Bob Lotich: I love it. All right. So I’m assuming I know the answer. How about this? What is, what would be the hardest way to go about buying this book? 

Annie F. Downs: Oh, that’s a great question. The hardest way to find a copy of Chase The Fun. 

Linda Lotich: Make it funny. 

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. The hardest way would be to drive to a Walmart in a different city. 

Bob Lotich: There you go. 

Annie F. Downs: And get it from there. So the easiest way is online or at your local Walmart or Target. The hardest way is getting in your car and passing one or two Walmarts or Targets.

Bob Lotich: Oh, yeah. 

Annie F. Downs: And going to the next one. 

Bob Lotich: There you go. I like that idea. 

Annie F. Downs: To get the book that you want. 

Bob Lotich: Yeah, so the book..

Linda Lotich: Is awesome.

Bob Lotich: I mean, the devotional is Chase The Fun. But, the precursor to this was That Sounds Fun, which is the same name as your podcast. 

Annie F. Downs: Yes. 

Bob Lotich: And so if you were someone who is the starchy kind and you need a little bit of air in tires, I think check out either of these books. I think they’re really gonna help you. Annie, as you can tell, is infectious and just carries a lot in this area. 

Linda Lotich: Yeah. 

In closing

Bob Lotich: So I encourage you to check all this out, check out the podcast. Annie, thank you for taking a few minutes and chatting with us today. 

Annie F. Downs: Oh, I loved it. Y’all are the best. Thanks so much for having me. We’re taking our kayaks out. I’m ready. 

Bob Lotich: Let’s do it. 

Our quarterly planning day for our business (checklist & our exact process)

August 19, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

Quarterly Business Planning Process

For the last few years I have been having a quarterly planning day for our business. And, it has been amazing for the business.

The first thing I do is to step out of the office. By doing so, it allows me to get to the 40,000 foot view I need to plan… and to get out of the day-to-day weeds.

When I plan, I evaluate what I want to do for the quarter and then break it out week-by-week. It has been so clarifying for me. And planning helps me waste far less time.

A day for quarterly planning has allowed me to focus on the things that are most important, and that is crucial.

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Do we have any Office fans?

Linda: Oh, I really hope so.

Bob: If you are, you are welcome to send us office memes, anytime on Instagram. Just tag us, send ’em our way. You can email ’em to us, whatever we do.

Linda: I actually follow an account that puts up Office videos, cuz I’m like, we’ve watched it several times and it’s still funny to me.

Bob: It is still funny. Did you see that Office clip I posted our stories?

Linda: I did. Is It is really great.

Bob: So I posted this clip to our stories. And it’s probably the smartest thing Michael Scott ever did. 

Linda: Right. There was a lot that he did that was smart, but this it’s so funny. Pam’s face in this is real good, too. Because she’s like, “oh yeah.”

Bob: Yeah. All right. So I’m gonna play it for you cuz it’s just really funny.

A very generous offer and we are prepared to reject that offer. Literally haven’t even heard that never except their first offer. What is your second offer? $12,000. Are you kidding me? That is insultingly low. I don’t even want to hear your first offer was here’s the situation.

Your company is four weeks old. I know this business. I know what suppliers are charging. I know you can’t be making very much money. I don’t know how your prices are so low, but I know it can’t keep up that way. I’m sure you’re scared probably in debt. That’s the best offer you’re gonna get, I’ll see your situation and I’ll raise you a situation.

Your company is losing clients left and right. You have a stockholder meeting coming up and you are going to have to explain to them why your most profitable branch is bleeding. So they may be looking for a little change in the CFO. So I don’t think I need to wait out Dunder Mifflin, but I think I just have to wait out.”

Bob: What was Pam’s face like?

Linda: She just looked at the camera like, “well, none of us saw that coming.”

Bob: Yeah, so good. Which you totally didn’t see that coming? 

Linda: Yeah.

I asked and the community answered

Bob: Anyway, what we’re talking about today on our stories, as well as last week, has to do with my office. So last week on July 1st. (the first day of each quarter), I do a quarterly planning day.

And I put up an Instagram story and just said “Hey, if anybody’s interested,I’ll go through exactly what I do. And I’ll make a podcast about it.” And so here we are. That’s what we’re doing.

Linda: Right. Because you had a good response.

Bob: Oh yeah. A lot of people said they were interested. So I’m like, okay, we’ll make a podcast about it.

I wanna go through a lot of different things that I do, some of these ideas I’ve come up with myself, but most of them I’ve borrowed from other people. Bright and smart people. But I’ve just implemented what has worked for us and pulled in ideas from a lot of different places to find what is working and really helpful for us.

My approach to a quarterly planning day

Bob: So I’m just going to go down this checklist that I have of different things that I do and how I approach a quarterly planning day.

And so we’ll talk about me specifically with the business, cuz I’m typically doing most of this myself at this point (if you want to start your own online business, here are 11 steps you should take).

Linda: I think I’ve been in, on one of those planning days.

Bob: And I wanna get you in on more of them. But a lot of this, I’m doing myself.

Linda: We need a nanny guys.

Selecting our personal goal setting days

Bob: But in next episode I’ll go over our personal goal setting day (why I think you should set a goal). Because we do this personally as well. We go through our personal goal setting and stuff like that, Linda and I together.

So we’ll go over the checklist we use, because that’s been really helpful as well. But we’ll save that for a separate episode, just to keep these topics separate.

Bob: All right. So at the top of this list when I have this quarterly planning day, I normally do this in the first work day of the quarter. So this is April 1st ( then again on July 1st, etc). And it doesn’t really matter when you decide to have your planning day, but this is just a rhythm that has worked well for me. And I’ve enjoyed that.

Your planning location matters

Bob: So another thing that I’ve done that I’ve found to be really helpful is getting out of my actual office and finding a different place to go. Because it’s the same thing that we’ve talked about with the sabbatical over and over again. There’s something about leaving your environment, breaking that default pattern. I think that allows you to think more creatively and there’s actually been scientific studies that have proven this. By getting out of your environment , you’re able to think more creatively. So there’s something actually to that.

I haven’t done this the last couple times but I wanna get back into this habit. What I was doing for a while was actually renting a hotel room in town to just be able to go somewhere else. And it could even be a co-working space. It could be any number of places.

Linda: Your favorite coffee shop?

Bob: Whatever, it doesn’t matter. I mean, I feel a little bit weird sitting in a coffee shop for eight hours. But in theory you could. For me, this is an all day thing. So if I’m doing it right, it’s taking me pretty much the whole day.

Be sure to make it fun

Bob: And along the lines of everything we do, I try to make it fun for myself. I’ll go out to lunch someplace. I want to make it enjoyable, as enjoyable as possible.

Be sure to thank God

Bob: And so going down this checklist, the first thing I’d like to do is thank God for the previous quarter. And you know, just the fact that we’re still in business. Like let’s be thankful about everything, you know?

Linda: Right.

Bob: Thankful that we’re in business, thankful for all the people we’ve gotten to serve. Thankful that He’s provided for us and provided for the business (If you’re a Christian business owner, here are 18 Bible verses you need to know).

I mean, there’s a million things we thankful for. And I think that’s the best place to start. Enter his gates with praise and thanksgiving.

Linda: Mm-hmm. Why not right?

Bob: Yep. So that’s kind of the top of the list.

Be sure to use a project management tool

Bob: Next on the list. And this is where I spend a lot of my time. , it doesn’t really matter what you use.I used Todoist a long time ago. It’s a to-do kind of tool. But now I use a Asana. We actually use this for project management for our company. But I also use it as my life to-do list for everything.

Linda: Yep.

Bob: Pretty much everything I do is kind of in this in some way or another, and in Asana what I do, or whatever to-do list we’re using, I have to dos that I complete throughout the week and things that need to get done. But then ideas will come to mind where it’s like, oh, it’d be great to… whatever, write an article about this. Or it’d be great to maybe collaborate with this person over here. Or, I saw this guy that had a great lead magnet for his website. That’d be a great thing to model after.

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Bob: Like all of these things where it’s like, I can’t do anything with that today. But I can later on. I used to get really overwhelmed cuz I would just have all that stuff in my mind and just keep pushing it off one week after another and just keep kicking the can down the road with no real plan in place for processing all this stuff. And it would just pile up to the point that I was so overwhelmed.

And so now what I’ve done is anytime I get an idea like that, I place it on one of the first days of the quarter. That way I know that I’m gonna see it again. Which if you’ve ever read Getting Things Done, and are familiar with that model… that’s one of the most important things: knowing and trusting in your brain and in your mind that the idea that you have isn’t gonna be lost. And that you’re gonna come back to it. Because when you don’t, when you don’t have any way to capture it and know that it’s there, you carry all the stress in your brain. Because you’re like I gotta make sure I remember this.

Linda: Absolutely.

Bob: But when you get it out of your brain and you get it onto some tool, you can remove that stress. And it actually is so helpful.

The first quarter planning day

Bob: So in that light, what I do is I take these ideas and I dump them on the first of each quarter. And sometimes if it’s like something I’m not gonna even think about for a year or two, I will literally push it all the way out a year out on the first day of that quarter.

Linda: Wow.

Bob: Just knowing that I don’t even need to think about it till then is awesome. So that’s what I do.

Bob: So for the quarter, I’m piling stuff up for that first day of the quarter. And then on day one of the quarter, I go through and process all those different ideas. And I’ll think through the next 12 weeks that are in this quarter. It’s like, what are the big things that I wanna be doing this quarter?

And so for our business, the beginning of this year, it was focusing on our book launch (get your copy of Simple Money, Rich Life today!). And within the book launch, it was a couple different things. Like, how do we assemble a launch team? How do we create a system to do some massive podcast outreach? How do we get on a whole bunch of podcasts?

Linda: The launch party.

Bob: And building a launch party.

So, each quarter might have a week or two or three dedicated to that important thing. But you know, in quarter one or two of the business, like SEO was not a priority. And therefore, I wasn’t going to schedule any SEO related tasks during quarter one or two.

Whereas maybe quarter four of this year, SEO might be something we begin working on. To start developing our search presence a little more. So at the beginning of the quarter, on July 1st, I just went through and I probably had 150, 200 different tasks to go sort out. Now, I have one day where I’m processing all those tasks and I push them out another quarter, or another two quarters or three quarters, if I’m a long way from working on the task. By doing this, I don’t have to think about the task (or idea) for a long, long time.

Breaking out my quarter (the next 12 weeks)

Bob: Or if it’s something that I think we’re gonna be working on in the next quarter, then what I’ll do is I’ll break my quarter out. For this, I have a regular physical calendar that I use.

What I’ll do is I will break my quarter into 12 different weeks. And as best as possible, I’ll assign a significant project for each of those weeks. In which will be the main goal for that particular week. Does this make sense?

Linda: Yes, that makes sense.

Bob: And so, I’ll just walk through a little bit of what I’ve done for this quarter.

Weeks 1-3: Updating our 10X Investing Course

Bob: So for this quarter in July, the top priority for us right now is working on our 10 X investing course. We’re doing a pretty significant update to this course.

There’s been a lot that’s happened with inflation. And there’s been a lot of people asking about investing for kids. So I just wanna fill in some of those content gaps and add more content to the course. There’s also been a lot of people asking about crypto, so we’re gonna add some crypto stuff as well. Anyway, so our 10 X course is just gonna continue to expand and become a better resource.

Already a 10x investing course student?

Bob: And side note, if you are already one of our students, you’re gonna get all these upgrades for free!

Linda: There you go.

Bob: Just as an FYI. And so what’s happening now for these two weeks, and the current week that we’re on. I don’t know when this podcast will come up, but the first two weeks in July I’m working specifically on upgrades or updates to the 10 X course.

And so that means recording content, writing content, creating content (how you can start your own blog). It’ll also mean probably writing some sales emails about the course, cuz we’re gonna launch the course and do some sort of sale. I dunno, probably soon I guess. And that’ll be coming up as well. So that’s what the first two weeks are focused on is that.

Weeks 4-6: Creating a new product

Bob: Then after that, we’re gonna be working on probably our most hands on product. We’re gonna create a new product (check out all of our current courses)!

Linda: That is…? Is it a secret?

Bob: Well, I don’t have a name for it yet. But it’s gonna be a product where it’s the most hands on. Probably the most expensive product we’ve ever released. And the most in depth in terms of helping people create a custom financial plan. Just taking them through everything that we’ve done that’s really made a big difference in our lives.

So anyway, we’re dedicated a few weeks to the planning of that.

Week 7: Crafting a really good lead magnet

Bob: The week after that we’re gonna be working on crafting and creating a really good lead magnet to build our email list better. We’re gonna work on building our funnel a little bit more, too. So we have a week dedicated to that.

These are all things that we’ve already started on and have done. But they can be improved. So we’re spending a week just improving them.

Weeks 8-10: Working on our True Financial Freedom live online class

Bob: The weeks after that we’re gonna be going through and working on our True Financial Freedom class. Continuing to make upgrades. That’s one thing you will find about us and all of our courses and everything we do. We are constantly improving our courses. And they are constantly getting better and better and better.

We take all the feedback that we get and we bake it back into the course. We find out what is really resonating with people and we highlight that more so. Basically all of our stuff is like a fine wine. It just gets better with time.

Weeks 11-12: Miscellaneous etc.

Bob: Beyond that, I like to make sure I have a week or two each quarter that’s pretty much dedicated to the et cetera and the miscellaneous. Because inevitably, stuff does comes up and things will need to move around a little bit. So you definitely need some flexibility in your schedule for this.

Anyway, that’s just a little bit of what we have laid out and how I’m laying things out throughout the quarter.

Sticky notes are key

Bob: My best tip for you is to use sticky notes. So for each week I have sticky notes for each of my to dos.

Linda: That’s a great idea. So then you can move it around if need be.

Bob: Yeah, I can move it if need be. Which works out perfectly because, for example, the beginning of this year we had so many people in our family sick. So much so that things just got kicked back and pushed out to a later date.

Linda: So then you’re like trying to erase everything to rearrange your calendar.

Bob: Yeah. So it was just easier with sticky notes. Then I can just move the note if I need to. This is why a miscellaneous week is really helpful having that buffer.

The first day of the quarter is BIG

Bob: But the point is… that on this first day, I’m going through this big long laundry list of all these ideas. I also try to think what the tasks are that line up with this idea (as I go through each idea). So I went through and looked for all the tasks that are 10 X related.

Then on July 1st, I went through and I had probably five to ten different lesson ideas that I had come up with over the past quarter that I wanted to add to the 10 X course. And all of those ideas were already sitting there.

I then dragged these ideas and dropped them on that first week, cuz that’s where they are. And that’s when I’m gonna work on them. Now on Monday of that first week, I see all those things just sitting there waiting for me.

This process has just been really, really helpful because it gives me a way to categorize and compartmentalize all of these different tasks without it being overwhelming and everything just coming at me a whole bunch of different ways.

Linda: Yeah. That’s good.

Bob: Does that all make sense?

Linda: Yeah. Cause I’ve never talked to you about this.

Bob: I know. And…

Protect your planning day

Linda: Our communication has been like… I’ll say, “Hey, can you help me out with this?” And you respond “no, it’s my planning day.”

Bob: I gotta protect my planning day.

Linda: And I’m like, what the heck is this planning day? And why is it so intense?

Bob: I am very protective of it because it is so important.

So that’s the big picture of what that planning day looks like for me.

Don’t forget to reflect

Bob: So another thing that I do is I also like to look back at the quarter and see what was working. And what didn’t work. Ask those questions. The things that are working all right, should we hit the gas more on that? Should we do more of that? And that’s just an important question to ask.

Finding a schedule that works for you

Bob: There’s been another thing that has worked for me, and it just may work for you too. Now I don’t do this every single quarter because it depends on what our needs and goals are at the moment. But we’ve had some quarters where I really find a creative rhythm. I will batch our content creation and that has worked so well for me.

Linda: Right. I remember when we did this.

Bob: When we were consistently pumping out content for our YouTube channel, which now we’re a little bit less consistent about at the moment. But when we were consistently releasing videos, we would batch them. I think we recorded and edited like 12 videos in one week.

Linda: We were trying to change our clothes in between shots so it didn’t look like we just we just gave up and only have one outfit. 

Bob: We just gave up and I only pretty much want wear black t-shirts now. Sometimes white t-shirts. But anyway, if you ever see me and I’m in a black t-shirt… I do have more than one. I actually have, six.

Linda: Seven. We have a friend who literally bought this electric blue colored shirt.

Bob: Yeah. And he just always has this blue t-shirt on.

Linda: And he’s got a bunch of ’em.

Bob: I think he’s got like 40 of them. Anyway, he has a bunch of them, so it’s always a clean one, but it’s the exact same shirt.

Linda: He wears it every day and you can pick him out of a crowd. Oh, there he is. There he is. It’s where’s Waldo!

Bob: Yeah. Oh, so anyway, so this actually was really helpful as well. And I recommend doing batching work if you can. Depending on what your business looks like.

But wearing the same outfit every day… Yes, I’m exactly kidding. But batching content creation it can really, really be helpful. It does require a good amount of upfront thought, but it was really, really nice taking that week and having all of the video done for the entire quarter.

Linda: Yeah. And there’s some tasks where it makes more sense to do it.

Bob: Without having to consistently think and come up with things each day, every day or whatever.

When batching work hasn’t made sense

Bob: Like with my writing. That was something that was the opposite. for me. I kept trying to batch writing and it just wasn’t working. So I finally decided what makes a lot of sense for my writing process. The rhythm that has worked the best for writing has been just writing every single morning, I write for 30 minutes or 500 words, whatever comes first.

And that’s my rhythm every single morning. That has worked so much better in terms of writing than batch my writing tasks .

Your planning day location matters

Bob: Okay. So When I was consistently going to a hotel, and I think you came to one or two of those, right?

Linda: Yeah.

Bob: In which I tried to get a decently nice hotel that I actually want to sit in, you know? We have one just down the street from our house, that’s not bad. And it’s nice and clean.

Linda: It’s new, right?

Bob: It’s not like a $5,000/night suite or thing. 

Linda: It’s on the company’s dime. We’re like, oh, let’s get the nicest room we can. Right?

Bob: Well a planning location isn’t necessarily a hotel. Like in the summertime, there’s actually this pavilion that’s not far away in our neighborhood. And that’s where I went just a few days ago for my planning day. It’s beautiful pavilion, just landscape beautifully all around. It’s one’s got a garden right next to it, too. And basically no one’s there. I’m all by myself. I actually had only two different people come by. They both said “man, this is a nice office.” I said “yes, it sure is!”

But in the wintertime, going to hotel room makes a little more sense.

Linda: Right.

An awesome tip for you

Bob: I have an awesome tip for those utilizing a hotel for their planning day. What I also do on my planning day is book the hotel room for the next quarter. And that way it’s already booked. Then when the next quarter comes, I don’t have to think about it. There’s no excuse because it’s already booked, you know?

Linda: Yeah.

Bob: And I just go.

Who are planning days are most beneficial for?

Linda: So I’m curious, who do you think this is most beneficial for? Like who is going to probably get the most benefit of it? Cause I think it depends on your job. You know, if you’re flipping burgers, maybe this doesn’t make sense for you in a business aspect. Or even if you’re a nine to five employee, maybe it doesn’t always make sense. I don’t know. Maybe it does depending on your job.

Bob: Yeah. I, would say freelancers and business owners, for sure. You know, outside of that I think if you wanna be an employee who’s thriving and making your boss look good (therefore advancing your career), it’s like you wanna be setting goals. And you wanna be doing some of this stuff, but maybe not all of it. I think that there’s definitely some employees for sure who can benefit from doing a process like this.

Linda: And I’m interested to know if an employee went to their employer or their manager, boss, whatever, and said, “Hey, I really want to make the most on my time. I’d like to spend a day just planning.” I wonder how that conversation would go and what would the fruit be like from that.

Bob: Well, I’ll tell you if you work for me, I’d be all over that.

What does your planning process look like?

Bob: So my question for you, our reader, is what are you doing? I’d love to hear from those of you out there who are running businesses, who are planning and thinking through stuff like this. What is on your planning day, or whenever you do this? What is working really well for you? Send us a DM on Instagram. I want to hear about your planning process, I wanna know your secrets.

Linda: And so we  always wanna know your secrets.

Bob: Yeah. You’ll find this out about me. If you haven’t already. I am an avid learner and kind of obsessed with just continuing to grow and learn and get better and better what I do.

Call to action

Bob: So your action item for today is, even if you’ve never done anything like this before, I recommend to talk to Siri right now. “Hey, Siri, remind me in the first of every quarter to go do a planning meeting.”

Or something like this to set some time aside to specifically plan out your next quarter. To get to the 40,000 foot view of your business. To step out of the weeds to step out of the day to day to look at the high, the big, picture. Because, it’s just been so helpful for me to step back and look at these 12 weeks, each quarter. And to determine what the most important thing is to work on for those weeks before I get into them.

I gotta put out all the “fires” that may occur in the business. And I have to answer all the emails that are coming in (have you signed up for our emails?)… and anything else that may come up.

With all the things that may happen each day, I go into each week with a game plan. And, I know the most important thing to work on for the week no matter what may come up. And that has been so incredibly helpful for my business.

Linda: That’s great.

Bob: So that’s your homework. I encourage you to try this out. Take a day and plan out the goals for your next quarter. And come back and let me know how it works for you. I’d love to hear your results. Send us an email or DM us on Instagram.

The Seedtime Money Podcast

Bob: And if you haven’t listened to our Podcast yet, you should! We strive to help you have success with money, success in your marriage and success as a Christian.

Linda: With that, I’ve got a podcast review. Oh yeah!

Bob: Let’s read it. Yeah, these are just pumping us up.

Bob: Everyone is welcome to leave a review on iTunes or anywhere else you may listen to podcasts. 

Linda: Love it, because it really is encouraging for us.

Bob: It’s inspiring for us and it helps push us forward. Be sure to send us a DM on Instagram after you do.

Linda: Then we can race over there and read it.

Bob: And Linda and I can go celebrate!

Seedtime Money Podcast Review

Linda: Okay. So this review was titled: Feeling Stuck. It’s from Corlawes. How do you say that?

Bob: Oh, I don’t know how to say that… core laws?  

Linda: Maybe. I know we’re saying that wrong. Sorry! But, okay here is what a the review reads:

Thank you both for the work you are doing. Your testimony has BLESSED and encouraged me to keep going in the assignment Father God has given me. I care for my grandchildren which I enjoy, however I have made some foolish choices in finances. He has proven to me over and over again He is my Source. Listening to you guys, I am learning a better way to use finances. God BLESS you and your family. “

Linda; Oh, that is awesome. I appreciate it. 

Bob: Yeah, thanks for the kind words. They’re such a blessing to us. 

Linda: I know. And it’s just exciting to hear that God is doing something like this. You know, we’re doing our best to share what we’ve learned and what God’s put on our heart to share. But it’s exciting when we hear that God is moving in people’s lives.

Bob: Yep. That’s the goal! Anyway, take care. Be blessed. Be a blessing.

‘Preachers N Sneakers’ Ben Kirby on balancing wanting more and contentment (that I struggle with)

August 12, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video I recorded with Ben Kirby. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

When it comes to finances and faith, it can be a very touchy subject. The world can influence us and we take too much credit for ourselves. Or, we can put too much trust into money.

As Christians, we need to audit ourselves and examine our heart to see what our intentions are and to remember what is true. It is God who is our provider and He is the one our trust should be in.

As Americans, our money even tries to remind us of this. The statement “in God we trust” is printed on our currency. However, we can tend to forget this.

I am excited to share the conversation I had with Ben Kirby with you. And if you are on Instagram, you probably heard of his account: Preachers N Sneakers. His account blew up a couple of years ago. It highlights what a lot of preachers are spending on whatever shoes they are wearing, or whatever lavish item they may have.

We need to remind ourselves that it’s all about the heart and the intentions behind our actions. Pastors, like everyone else, need the accountability from people who will be truly honest with them and not just be “yes men.” Is their heart in the right place?

And so I wanted to bring Ben’s insight on this topic to have a conversation about this touchy subject. Because I’ve observed that he’s actually very intellectually honest about this topic. I think there’s a lot to talk about here.

Now before we get into all the details and give you a strategy for employing your kids in your business, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast below. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Preachers N Sneakers

Bob: So with all that, Ben, thank you for coming on and chatting brother.

Ben: Hey Bob, thanks for having me, man. This is fun. And I have to say, I watched some of your videos before this and really impressed with what you guys do. Like over a hundred K subs on YouTube and somehow you got a 34X return on some stock that you didn’t say out loud, but I’m interested to maybe learn which stock that was. If you have any other of those hot burning tips. for stock investing.

Bob: Yeah, we could, we can talk all about that and go on that path and, and I appreciate that. Yeah. And we’ve been at it a while, so it doesn’t happen overnight…

Ben: Sure.

Bob: …by any means. But anyway.

The Book

Bob: So you got book out? You’ve launched this Instagram account that blew up like crazy and then you wrote a book. And so that came out what a year or two ago?

Ben: 2021. Yeah.

Bob: What’s so cool about it, that I think so many people were probably surprised by, is this Instagram account appears to be kind of poking fun. And it doesn’t seem like someone who has started account like that would have the depth and substance that you do, that comes out in the book. And I mean, this is a compliment, I hope it comes across this way.

Ben: No, I’ve heard this a ton of times like that.

Bob: Because that book is really solid. I think one of the endorsements someone mentioned that that you managed to do the impossible. Actually be really funny and important at the same time. I thought that was just the perfect description of it.

Faith and Finances

Ben: Well, I’m grateful for somehow being equipped to have this conversation about a very messy topic about…

Bob: Yeah.

Ben: Church leaders and money and spending and celebrities and social media, that kind of thing. And I talked about it in the book, like why I was the person? I’m this military dude that grew up in the south and is not a theologian or hasn’t studied this stuff more than like in my quiet time here or there.

And so it’s been an interesting ride the past three years or so. And it’s happened all organically. I’ve never run ads. Maybe some ads for the book itself though. But in terms of growing the account on Instagram, it just all grew organically.

Bob: So let’s dive in here and talk a little bit about this. Because it’s such a tricky topic. I’ve been talking about money and finance and Christianity, for 14-15 years on the internet now. So I know to some degree what you’ve probably experienced as you’ve made statements. And in my world, honestly, one of the most controversial things to talk about is tithing.

Ben: I’m assuming we’ve had very similar experiences about Christians and money for whatever reason. It’s some prerequisite of being a Christian or being in Christian spheres that you have to be weird and kind of hush hush about money. Otherwise it’s on the opposite end of the spectrum where people are super vocal and angry about what Christians do with their money.

It’s basically like the worst subject to specialize in if you’re trying to make money, because if you try to make any kind of money off of anything that you do, you inevitably attract the people that are trying to make you out to be a hypocrite, that kind of thing.

Pressure not to live a luxurious lifestyle

Bob: Yeah okay and so this brings up a good point because I’ve observed, you know, cause I have been an overt Christian, I mean really targeting Christians with our message. And therefore I have felt a lot of pressure to not live a luxurious lifestyle. But on the other hand, I have a lot of friends who are doing exactly what I’m doing, who are Christians, solid Christians.

But like have no pressure. And I mean, outward pressure, I guess I should say. Outward pressure to live as lavish of lifestyle as they want. No, I don’t think one or the other is necessarily wrong, but I think at the end of the day I think it should be internal pressure that should be driving those things. Thoughts?

Ben: Conviction. This is the whole discussion at a high level. Once you connect profitability to spiritual things, it starts to get pretty messy.

I absolutely believe that people that work hard should get paid. I mean, I’ve got my MBA, I believe in making a profit. I believe that drives innovation and problem solving that kind of thing. But it feels a little different when you do it when your time is funded from sacrificial donations of people that are trying to “further the kingdom.” That’s where it starts to get a little weird. And I’ve tried to make the distinction the whole time. The fact that you can’t distinguish me from a mega church pastor is the problem.

The fact that you’re just as mad that I’m selling a t-shirt as maybe this other guy who’s living off tithe dollars is now selling another New York times bestseller to his church congregation. There seems to be some differences in there, but a lot of people are unequipped to make those distinctions. And so it’s just a messy topic when you envelop Christian or Christianity within a business line or a profit center.

Figuring out where that line is

Bob: The hardest thing for me is trying to figure out where that line is.

Ben: Yep.

Bob: Of whatever. Even in the case of your Instagram account. I’m curious where the line is, of the price where it’s like, eh, that’s not that expensive. Where it’s like, I’m not going to feature that, you know?

And that’s just an example of, where is the line? Do you know what I mean? What have you landed on with this?

Distraction from the ministry

Ben: The easiest line to come to is the moment it becomes a distraction from your ministry, is the moment you should reevaluate it. Because I am not so arrogant to think that I am an authority on what is and what is not appropriate to spend on a pair of shoes. I’ve never claimed to be like $500 and below is the number, the line.

What I can say is, “Hey guys, it sure does seem like from a macro level that your ministry seems a lot more about fame and platform and celebrities and looking good as it is to pointing people to the creator of the universe.” Like, there’s a lot of nuance within that, but I think the moment it distracts, or it makes your ministry about you instead of about pointing to God, that’s where you should start to evaluate.

Wealth reference point and internal audits

Ben: And of course, reference points matters. We’re richer than 99% of the world just by, you know, having a house in a single car. And so reference points matter, but I at least want to get people to try to at least audit that for themselves. And not just be like, yeah, whatever these guys are free to make money however they want. It’s like, well, I don’t know. I think God probably cares about how his “shepherds” are stewarding their finances and the finances of those that they’re in charge of.

Bob: Yeah. You mentioned a reference point, because that’s really important. Because when we think through that lens, I think it’s $45,000 a year or something, that is the top 1% in the world.

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: And when you understand that, like anyone listening to this is very, very wealthy.

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: And when you, when you realize that I am “the rich” that Paul was talking about in 1 Timothy 6. Like I am the rich that need to be thinking about this stuff, because I think it’s easy to just stand back.

It’s so easy to throw stones from where you are not having been in that situation and be like, yeah, I would never do that if… you know? And anyway, it’s a tricky thing.

Buying an iPhone is a sin?

Bob: Another thing I was just thinking about what this when I first started blogging, whenever the iPhone first came out in 2007 or 2008.

Ben: An actual blog, not a vlog?

Bob: Yeah. I started blogging in…

Ben: Nice.

Bob: 2007. And so I remember reading this article that basically said for Christians, buying an iPhone is a sin, because it’s too extravagant. And so what’s interesting about this is because it was $200 more than the most expensive phone at the time. So it’s like, that’s too extravagant. Therefore it’s a sin.

It’s a slippery slope

Bob: I guess my point in this is that this all shifts, you know what I mean? This is shifting sand because now it’s like you going to church 50-70% of the people have an iPhone.

Ben: It’s a slippery slope to just definitively say that. You don’t want it to be a cop-out where well, I live in a wealthy area, so my point of reference is different than somebody in a third world country. I think we should still care about caring for and contributing to human flourishing, where people are suffering. But yes, it’s a ridiculous conversation to have saying no one should ever have the newest iPhone.

No one is in a position to say that, but I think it’s worth at least trying to encourage people to examine that for themselves because the word modesty comes up a lot in the conversation. Especially if you’re on a stage preaching about Jesus. There is an element of wisdom that comes from considering what you wear and how you present yourself.

Bob: Yeah.

Ben: And you don’t want to live by fear, but also you want to be considerate. Life is hard and a lot of people are not experiencing a prosperity gospel type life situation. And I think it’s naive to not consider that at all.

Bob: Yeah.

What may affect your witness

Bob: So something that I have wrestled with I’m assuming that you think about this a little bit too. But given the nature of what I do, I’m not a preacher, I’m not a pastor. But because I’m speaking to Christians, I feel a sense of obligation. Given that, just kind of what you’re talking about. In the back of my head I’ve created some rules for myself, of I’m probably never going to buy X… that type of car, that thing, whatever. And not necessarily because I think it’s wrong to own that, but because I think it might affect my witness.

I think there are people, right or wrong, who might be judging me and dismissing me and removing the opportunity for me to speak into their lives because of me owning that thing.

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: Do you think that’s healthy?

Ben: Brands matter. And the message that brands send, whether you agree with it or not, they do send a message. The whole 2015 BMW versus a 2022 Suburban. No, one’s going to say anything about your Suburban, most likely. But if you had a BMW, they’re going to mention the Beamer. Brands can matter.

Bob: But, that’s the hilarity of it.

The need for accountability

Ben: Yeah. And I think every pastor ever has probably dealt with this in some capacity. The only thing you can do is have people close to you that know you well and can speak into whether or not you care too much about those things, or not. Like if you’re buying a Beamer because you like the idea that people know that you have a Beamer. Then that’s probably an issue.

But if you have five people that know you and your situation well enough, that they can be like, “Hey man, you’ve been working hard. We know that you’ve been budgeting and saving and giving. And you found a good deal on this Beamer that you’ve always wanted.” I think there’s a way to do it and then just buy it securely. Where, okay, I know people are going to maybe comment on this, but I’ve vetted it through people that actually know me and can speak into my life.

There’s wisdom there. And people have different ideas. Like everyone’s spends money on luxuries of some kind, at least in the Western world.

Bob: Yep.

Ben: And it’s a matter of whether those things own you or not. Because I feel the absolute same pressures. You know, my whole thing is to get people to consider the message they’re sending online and through their lives and their ministries and everything. I’ve got to do the same. People would call me out if I was taking selfies with celebrities and wearing a Gucci belt. Like none of those things are inherently wrong, but the heart behind those things matter. And also let’s not be tacky. As it would be pretty tacky for me to do some of that kind of stuff.

Influencing the influencers

Bob: Okay. So let’s transition. And I know, we’re going to some different directions here, but I think it’s an important conversation. And so I’m curious what your thoughts are. Let’s go to Carl Lentz.

Let’s take away the moral failing. But him connecting, being able to reach into a segment of society that most people can’t. And possibly being able to influence these influencers. Whoever, Bieber, I don’t even know who all went to that church and who all he had a relationship with.

But, my initial thought of that, I feel like there are two knee jerk reactions to that. It’s either that’s wrong. He shouldn’t be doing that. Or like, that’s awesome. Let’s cheer him on because he’s able to influence the influencers. And I know Bieber and him fell out or whatever. But the point is that I don’t know if Bieber would be where he was, if it wasn’t for Carl.

And I heard a podcast that Carl did a week before the whole thing came out with the scandal. He was with Logan Paul or someone like that. And Carl, I mean, what was coming out of his mouth was really good. And I was excited that he was there to influence Logan Paul. And so in that leads to the whole thing of God using people, even when they’re in a mess and all this stuff that can go so many different directions.

The ability to influence

Bob: I’m just curious to what your thoughts are on that. Like, how do you do that? Deal with a calling to influence the influencers, or whatever the group might be. And, do it right? What would you do if you were in his situation?

Ben: That’s a great question. I agree with you. And I’ve spoken with Carl several times.

He has a gift for communicating and interacting in a way that builds trust, like immediately. And allows him to talk the same talk that powerful influential people can talk. And make it a way for him to be relatable to those people where they don’t feel like they’re being preached at or judged or any number of things that celebrities are concerned about.

Celebrities are humans and hopefully are trying to pursue salvation in some way. I think it is in a vacuum great to influence influencers. It makes sense. Like it’s the whole Hillsong model. All the mega church models like, “Hey, let’s reach the people that can have the most reach.”

It’s like the pyramid. Where you influence one person and they influence a bunch of people under them. On the surface, it’s also a pretty cool calling to somehow have the ability to influence mainstream superstars.

Bob: Yeah.

Christianity is not “cool”

Ben: Everyone knows that grew up in Christianity, that Christianity is not cool. And plenty of people have tried to make it cool. This group of guys, Carl being the leader of them, found a way to make a brand of Christianity that was inherently cool.

Cool enough where you could market it. You could make a whole conference around it. You could make music albums and merch around it. And all of that was effective and good.

The downside is that you build those ministries on one leg. And if that leg gets cut out, the entire ministry erodes. And unfortunately when your ministry is based around the brand of a single guy, or girl, that’s pretty dangerous. And I hope that ministry leaders at least can take heed of that and understand that it’s awesome to grow in numbers and have effective reach to influential celebrities. But also the accountability thing is still real. You need people that can call you out and make sure that you’re not getting in back rooms and quiet places with just you and any number of vices.

So if I was Carl, and given the same opportunity, I’d probably try to do the same. Like if Drake and Bieber and Kevin Durant are trying to hang out with me, I’m most likely not going to push that away. I’d be trying to find a way to further my ministry with that.

But you know, what sucks is when these guys just get a little too insulated. Or get in a position where they can be deceptive. Or do things behind closed doors that nobody else is going to ask them about.

I mean, what do you expect? Being good-looking, having power, money, influence, incredible clothing, all that kind of stuff. I sure hope it goes well for you.

Bob: No challenges.

Ben: Yeah. You’re at least playing with some amount of fire.

The nervousness of having a platform

Ben: And so that makes me nervous, even having the platform I have. Maybe people that have never seen what I do, my account does not exist to just say pastors are wrong for wearing expensive shoes. It’s more about driving a conversation around the whole topic.

Like the celebrity pastors are the product of this new form of Christianity that we do in the West. And it started with just me pointing out how much shoes are worth. I purposely kept it ambiguous because it’s impossible to make one statement or the other to say which is right or which is wrong.

My platform, it makes me nervous that I’ve tried to over-index on having people ask me hard questions to speak into my life. And to call out whether or not I love too much that I’ve got a blue check and a few hundred thousand followers, because it feels good.

It feels good to have people say, “man, you’re, doing something important.” Or, “you’re funny,” or you’re whatever. You’ve got celebrities reaching out to you. And I could be in the same position as them. Like I’m no better than them. It just makes me nervous because fame and money and influence can easily get it polluted.

Bob: Yeah. I think just that nervousness and that awareness is so essential. This reminds me of Proverbs where it says above all else, guard your heart.

Accountability is a necessity

Bob: And I’ve heard multiple veteran, not just pastors, but some pastors, some just believers who have walked the walk a long time. And there’s a common theme that I’ve heard from them, in terms of how to do this thing right and run the race to the end without falling in one of many different ways.

Is this accountability component that you’re talking about. Especially when you’re in the limelight. You have a lot of eyes on you and you have a lot of “yes men” around you. I think this is my observation from here and what they’ve had to say, that it’s really important to have honest people around you. Who will give you honest feedback and tell you the truth? And tell you when you start drifting and get a little bit weird.

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: Because if we look at Bieber or Miley Cyrus or any number of these child stars, that’s part of the problem. From a young age, all they hear is “yes.” Everyone around them was a “yes” man.

And so of course they’re going to become weird. Everybody becomes weird when no one ever tells them “no.”

Ben: Right. Yeah. And it starts to affect your interpretation of reality when you have a platform. I mean, y’all have a ton of subs too. Having some amount of influence over people’s decisions or thoughts or whatever can be pretty addicting. If you put something out there and you get all this good feedback, it’s like, “oh, maybe I am awesome. Maybe I do have this thing figured out.” And that just can so easily get polluted where it can lead you down the wrong path.

I am not immune to it. I enjoy making money. I enjoy growing the account and getting a bunch of engagement. All that feels good. And that’s one of those things that I’ve got to constantly ask myself, and ask God, and ask the people around me to check in on me.

Bob: Yeah. That’s really good. And I think that’s just practical wisdom.

Being an Enneagram 3 in America

Bob: I think I read this in your book you’re a three on the Enneagram, is that correct?

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: I am too. And so I remember reading, Ian Cron’s book. If I remember right, he basically said it’s really hard being a 3 in America because that’s what America is.

Ben: Yeah.

Bob: And everything that we desire is what gets applauded in America. It’s different than in France or something, you know? But, the point is people like us, everybody’s celebrating stuff in this driven to succeed in whatever, all this stuff.

Ben: Achievement. Yeah.

There’s a way to do it right

Bob: Anyway, so this is something that I’m finding myself thinking a lot about because I’m determined to run this race to the end and to do it well. And to not have a moral failing and not fall off.

And just like you mentioned how you have gotten nervous about some of this stuff. It’s the same thing for me. I don’t want to live out of fear with it, but I just want to be smart and wise. Because I’m convinced that there is a way to do it right. And there’s a way to avoid the deceitfulness of riches. I mean, power and fame and success and whatever. There’s a way to do it right.

I don’t know that any of us can do it in our own strength. I actually think that we need God’s grace to have any chance of being successful at it. But I think that’s probably part of the problem for a lot of people, is you start getting big, start feeling successful and you just start to drift just a little bit, you know?

The moving target

Bob: My first hint of success online, we reached a certain milestone or whatever. I watched over that year or two it was just a tiniest little drifting and the tiniest little amount of pride that began to seep in. And it’s the smallest amount of success that anyone could possibly have pride over, but like it started to creep in and it was so subtle. And you don’t notice it day by day. But two years later, looking back, it’s like, “oh wow, I drifted from there.”

And at that point in my life, God had to do some course corrections. It wasn’t like major corrections, but just a little bit of hard shift.

Ben: Like taking a little more credit than I should. Or thinking it was in your own efforts, or like your ingenuity. Some of those things.

Bob: Yep, exactly.

Ben: And, I think it’s okay to be proud of your accomplishments, but it’s one of those directional things. Like you’re either heading towards humility and modesty and good stewardship, or you’re heading the opposite direction. It’s always a moving target.

Bob: Yeah. It’s like walking on this super steep hill. You can’t really walk right on the top. You’re going in one direction or the other.

Ben: Right.

Walking in balance

Bob: Yeah. And it’s just such a tricky balance to walk. But I remember Andy Stanley talking, he had a whole message just about walking in the balance. And there’s so many aspects of Christianity and of our faith, where there is a balance component. Where either extreme is just off, but we’re called to walk in the tension, you know?

Ben: Yep. This is what I, this is the thing I talked most about in therapy with…

Bob: Really?

Ben: …my counselor, is about living in balance. Because the thing I struggle with too is being on the extremes. Like I’m either absolutely a hypocrite or I’m doing completely God’s work, it’s one or the other. And living in the balance and living in tension, it’s one of those things that I need to work on. It’s something that I’m always trying to improve upon. It’s hard.

Bob: It really is.

Ben: At least on social media people want a definitive answer one way or the other. And sometimes you feel like you owe that to people. When in fact, oftentimes all I can say is “I don’t know, man.”

What is spent is circumstantial

Bob: I don’t know if you talk about this in the book, or where your thoughts are. But I think it’s probably pretty safe to say that some of this, in terms of what you should be buying and how much you should spend on things, I think some of this is circumstantial or unique to the individual.

And there’s some individuals where it’s like this thing might be the wrong thing and other people, it might be different. Which adds a whole other element of complexity.

Ben: Yep.

Bob: And not being in a position to yeah,I don’t know. It’s such a tricky thing.

Ben: Going back to the brand matters, the Beamer discussion. Like for some people, it’s playing into their desire to be loved or their desire to be seen as successful. Very much a heart issue. And then for others, you know, they could be giving 99% of their wealth away and they want to buy a Beamer and they’re completely secure about it. There’s ways to have most things without it being toxic every time.

But when you live online, you at least have to acknowledge that people are free to interpret what you put out there, however, they’re going to interpret it. And you can’t really control that and you at least have to be aware of it.

Bob: Yeah. And that’s, those are the interesting times that we live in.

Ben: Right.

What Ben wants you to know

Bob: So in terms of the book, I’m curious, what are your big one or two things you want someone to take away from the book? From what I’ve seen of it so far, it’s very much like you’re trying to start a discussion. And not necessarily trying to say if you spend more than $500 on shoes, you’re wrong.

Ben: Right.

Bob: But what would are the big things you want people to leave with?

Ben: Yeah. If I could go back and do it again, I’d probably market the book a little different. Because to your point earlier, I think it was a little confusing for people. People didn’t know what the book was going to be. Like if it was going to be just about an Instagram account, or if there’s going to be a picture book with just the posts. Or if it was going to just be roasting pastors.

Bob: Yeah.

Ben: And I got a lot of feedback that people were pleasantly surprised about the questions. Or how I tried to drive the discussion. I don’t think it was perfect. And I think there’s plenty of people that were better equipped to write a book about this.

Audits are needed

Ben: The ultimate goal, I think for me, was to get people to audit their own lives. How they present their lifestyle pics online, like them going on vacation. And their new purchases. Get them to question whether or not they were part of the problem causing people to envy. Causing people to be dissatisfied with their own lives. Like getting them to audit their piece of that.

And then also audit their life in their real lives. About how they spend and give and save. And what their heart is behind. Why they purchase what they purchase. I don’t care if you buy sneakers or something with a brand on it.

I do care about how the Christian life and what it means to follow Jesus is presented to the world. And I’m not doing this great. I struggle to read the Bible every day. And, I’m just as much of a sinner as every other sinner out there. But for whatever reason, I felt like this was an opportunity to try to get people to recenter their priorities and their focus, for believers.

And then for non-believers, at least get them to audit how they’re presenting themselves online. And how they prioritize their finances. Because I think that’s good across the board. And the sneakers was just a way of getting into it.

Take your faith seriously

So really I want believers to take their faith seriously. Because it’s either super serious or it’s not. The diluted version doesn’t serve you at all. So I want people to take their faith seriously. I want them to ask good questions of their faith leaders and call them to a standard that they’re called to in the Bible. And then ultimately, audit their own heart behind their social presence and their finances.

It’s about the heart

Bob: Yeah. And the heart thing. We teach about money a lot and and that’s the common denominator. That’s the thing that I see all throughout the Bible when we’re talking about money is this common theme of it’s about the heart. You know what I mean? Jesus wants our hearts.

Ben: Right.

Bob: It’s so easy to drift and to just begin making decisions based on mammon. And just subtle shifts. And it as simple as should I take this job or not? Well, yes, it pays more. So of course I want to take it. But it’s like, no! Like let’s pray about it first. And there’s so many directions that this can go.

Continue to audit your heart

Bob: I love that idea and it’s just such a good challenge for all of us to continue to audit our hearts, audit our situations. For me personally, I’m willing to trade maybe not having something that I desire at an extreme level that I would enjoy personally, if that possibly opens up the opportunity for me to speak into someone’s life and lead them to Jesus. I’m willing to make that trade.

I think there’s some, or maybe a lot, who would argue that “well, it doesn’t have to be either or.” I don’t know, maybe that’s a fair point. But at the same time, like I know because I’ve been doing this long enough that there are just a lot of people who get offended by certain stuff.

Ben: Yep.

Bob: And therefore, if I can just minimize that offense in order to have an opportunity.

Ben: Yeah. And you know, that’s one of those moving targets where you have to check in with your people about whether or not you care too much about that. Like, there is a point where you care too much about the opinions of others.

Bob: I definitely have leaned to that, too.

Helpful framework

Ben: Yeah, as a three, like I care about whether or not people see me as achieving things and being successful. You know the Enneagram isn’t gospel. But it’s helpful to frame…

Bob: Helpful framework, yeah.

Ben: Yeah. And the achievement thing and wanting to do more. Always feeling I’ve got to do more. You know, that’s something worth bringing up to say, get your people to speak into about whether or not you care too much about whether people are mad that you’ve purchased a new car after saving for 10 years.

Bob: I know, I know.

Ben: Stuff like that.

Not everyone will like you

Bob: Yeah. And those are things that I’ve wrestled with for years, too. Just finding that balance of getting comfortable, not having everybody liking me.

Ben: Yeah. Right.

Bob: Because it’s like, that’s what I want, you know? And the truth is, if you’re going to take a stand for anything, that’s going to happen, that people don’t like you.

Ben: Yeah, that’s still very uncomfortable and exhausting for me. I have no grasp on how to do that. I still get very upset if people are starting to get mad at me in the comments or the DMs.

Auditing your time

Ben: And I don’t even spend that much time online now. In 2019, I was spending like eight to 10 hours a day on Instagram. And now I mean…

Bob: Wow.

Ben: It was all, it was all day cause I was trying to respond. I was trying to grow the account. I was trying to be funny and creative. And we had our son April of last year, so I’ve got a one-year-old now. And since that, obviously my priorities have completely changed.

So I might spend an hour a week on Instagram now. And I think it’s helpful to audit that as well. Like how much time you’re spending online. Because, we’re not physically equipped to handle the inputs of that many people at once without any kind of filter. It’s pretty tough.

I’m grateful and proud to have a platform that’s so big. People work really hard to make a platform of this size. But having experienced it now, I know that having thousands of people speak into something that I put out there isn’t always healthy for me. All the feedback, because there’s just a whole range of people’s opinions and experiences.

Keeping up with the Joneses

Bob: That’s interesting. There’s so many people that are trying to do this keep up with the Joneses thing. And it’s just so unfortunate. I think it was Roy Rogers who had this quote, it was something like you spend money to impress people you don’t care about, or something like that. Where these people who I don’t even like, I’m spending money to try to impress them. And it’s such a vicious cycle that you can find yourself in.

Ben: Yeah, we live in Dallas and it seems impossible to not fall into that in some degree. Because you inevitably run into people that have ranches and private jets and go on ski trips. And have a fully paid for house that their parents paid for them.

There’s a whole host of things. It seems like you’re not doing enough or you’re not succeeding enough compared to people that you don’t even know.

Bob: Yeah. And I think it’s Jim Rome that said something to the effect of in five years from now, you’ll be the, some of the books you read and the people you spend your time around.

And, that has a positive connotation, but I think in this context it can have a very negative connotation as well. Right?

Ben: That’s right. Yeah, you can get absolutely polluted by your environment to the point where you just become part of that environment.

Earn. Save. Give.

Bob: Our passion behind everything is we’re trying to help people earn more money. But the goal follows John Wesley’s pattern of let’s earn as much as we can. Let’s reduce our expenses as much as we can so that we can give as much as we can. So that we can use what God has entrusted us with these skills, these talents to earn more so we can make an impact on the world. So that’s what we’re after.

God is your provider in the ups and downs

Bob: And I know full well, just from a little bit of the ups and downs financially that we’ve had on this journey. In some of those high times, it’s really easy to not begin trusting in money and continuing to know that God is your provider. Because it’s just important to know that when things are really high just as when you’re completely broke.

Ben: Right.

Bob: Cause a lot more people are praying Philippians 4:19 when they’re broke, you know? For those needs to be met. But, we need to be on that when we’re at our high points as well. Just remember it’s not the bank account. It’s not the job. It’s not the income, whatever. God is the provider.

Ben: That’s a really good point because once you start hitting your milestones and your goals and like, oh this is working. Whatever I’m doing, this is working. And then you hit that threshold in your mind of a number in your bank account. Then you feel safe financially. We’ve got six months emergency fund saved. And fully funded Roths. Yes, like that’s first world problems, but it’s still valid to say we still need God the provider. There is nothing without him.

Struggling with why some have more than others

Ben: I write about this a little bit in the book. And this is one of the things I really struggled with about Christianity and being in America. I don’t completely know why we get to have Macbooks and surplus in our bank accounts while there are millions and millions of people that live on like $2 a day or something.  

Bob: Yeah.

Ben: But I guess we’re supposed to just steward that as well as we can in hopes that we can help others and point them to the provider. Even though it doesn’t seem fair. I don’t know why America exists compared to the billions of people in other countries that are just as loved by God as we are. And it just seems like we can only try our best.

Wrapping things up

Bob: Well, I am thankful for this conversation. I’m glad you came on and chatted. So everybody run out and grab Ben’s book Preachers N Sneakers. Is it plural preachers and sneaker?

Ben: Preachers, letter N, Sneakers.

Bob: There you go. Yeah. So it’s on Amazon. Did you do an audible version of it?

Ben: I did. Yup.

Bob: Yeah. Great. So everybody check it out. Like I said, I got a start on it and I’ve laughed multiple times. Which is so crazy that I’m laughing in a book like this because it’s blowing my mind. So you did such a great job.

Ben: Thank you.

Bob: Infusing humor in making a difficult conversation, lighthearted. So I applaud you on that.

Ben: Thanks.

Bob: And everybody run over to Instagram and you can follow Ben’s big old account with 300,000 followers. And it’s Preachers N Sneakers, right?

Ben: That’s right. Yep.

Bob: So, all right, man. Well, I appreciate the conversation. Thanks for coming on.

Ben: You too. Thanks, Bob

Derrick Kinney and money attitudes holding you back

June 3, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video I recorded with Derrick Kinney. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

financial attitudes

Do you have any money attitudes holding you back in life? You just may. But, we can always change our attitude and breakthrough.

Derrick Kinney wrote a really cool book that I’m really excited about. There’s so much in this book that lines up with what we’re doing and correlates with our book Simple Money, Rich Life.

But anyway, Derrick’s book is called “Good Money Revolution.” If you aren’t familiar with Derrick, he is a former, retired, financial planner. So he’s been in the industry a long time.

And I’m excited to chat with him about some of the things we’re going to be talking about when it comes to the money attitudes holding you back. I think there’s a lot here in terms of our beliefs, with financial attitudes, and things that we established on our financial journey.

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Your past has shaped your financial worldview

Bob: So anyway, without any further ado, Derrick, thank you for taking some time out of your day to come chat brother.

Derrick: Oh, happy to do it Bob. I don’t take this lightly. I know that you have a devoted audience and to place your trust in me coming on your show means a lot. So it’s really great to be with you today. 

Bob: Well, we’re glad to have you we’re excited to chat. I’m really excited by your book. I want to start here though, I want to look back. Let’s go back to your upbringing. Because I’m always fascinated by how many people have so much of their financial worldview shaped by their childhood, and shaped by what happened with their parents. We can go in a whole bunch of different directions with this, but I’d love to hear from you.

What was that like growing up? What was the financial education that you got from your parents, or whoever raised you? 

Derrick: What my story wasn’t, was I didn’t walk up hill in the snow, both ways to school. I didn’t have to carry a hot baked potato to warm my hands and eat that for lunch. That wasn’t my story, because that really sells today.

My story was that I grew up in a lower middle-class family. But when I was a kid, I just thought I grew up in a regular family and a regular house. I remember going to a friend’s house, the very first time I was inside of a two-story house, my mind was blown. I thought to myself, I’ve never been inside of a mansion before. A house that had three bathrooms. It was mind-boggling. And then to go back to my house began to give me some perspective of the world.

Taking action from what you have come to realize

Derrick: But here’s an example of the house I grew up in. I didn’t see my parents arguing over money per se. But as I got older, what I realized was my dad’s specifically always had a bend for wanting to make more money.

He worked as a metallurgical engineer. We moved six times before the sixth grade. So it was hard to make friends. You know if you look at my nose, my nose is larger than average, and that caused a lot of problems for me growing up. I thought I’ve got this beautiful art piece on my face. Not everybody saw it that way.

They bullied me. They teased me and it made me feel really isolated, quite candidly. And, and I was on my own a lot. When I was in junior high, I began to really get teased a lot and into high school, but I had this epiphany that, you know, what if I ran for office? What if I tried to get above all of the fray here?

And what happened was, I just feel like it was a God-inspired idea. I looked around and I recognized. There were a whole bunch of nobodies that, and I was chief of them. I did not come from the gene pool of the popular kids, but I recognized if all the nobody’s got together. We could become somebody. And I had this idea where I would run for office and I reached out to all the leaders of these different organizations.

The country western crowd, the rock and roll crowd, the athletes, the students, the band. And I had a picture taken with each of these leaders and on the poster, it said: “Hey, let’s rock the boat with Derrick.” And I won the election that day.

A message of hope

Derrick: What it taught me was that whatever your upbringing, whatever people have told you that you can do. Or past decisions you’ve made or in your own mind. You’ve said, “you know what? This is just who I am. And I can’t get out of this.”

But you can. And I want to give people a message of hope today. I think back to that moment, even when I see the students, I graduated high school with today, they always go back to that moment. It was a moment where we all felt like man, we can conquer the world. It was when the non-popular kids suddenly won a victory.

And I think it helped me in business because I recognized if I can help people be appreciated and listened to and valued. You can do really well with your money and it can allow you to give a whole lot more money as well.

Bob: Wow. That’s really interesting.

Working to earn your money

Bob: So tying that into, you had that big revelation. Let’s pull that back to your financial worldview at that point. How did you think about money? Did you think money was wrong? Did you think money was good?

Derrick: Yeah, so I was the kid who would age 15, was trying to find a way to get my driver’s license, when I had to wait to age 16. I wanted to get out, get my car, be independent and work. My first job was at Minyard food stores making $3.35 an hour as a package clerk, the guy that would bag groceries for you. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: And I would keep cash books. You’re going to laugh at this, Bob. I would keep cash books and record every paycheck I made. Every penny, every nickel, every quarter I had found on the ground got recorded in my cash book.

And I had these great plans of having a driveway cleaning business. I bought this package of powder at the local hardware store. And power washed with a hose people’s driveways, the way we did in the old days.

I inspected my sister’s bike, my bike and my parents’ bikes for like $5 a bike. I even had my parents, I would loan them money so that they could pay me back interest based on my amortization chart I had on the back of my closet door. I mean, so I loved making money.

The more you make the more you can give

Derrick: What I began to realize was the more money I made, the more money I could give. I remember vividly at our church, there was a food pantry that was there and I loved giving money anonymously. But it was a really small church and I realized if I wrote a check out of my checkbook or things like that, people would know.

So I practice writing with my left hand on the envelope and just putting a cash in there and dropping that in the offering plate. As I went by that way, it was never tracked back to me. So I just had the sense of “hey, it’s fun to work and it’s fun to make money. And the more money I make, I can give more money.”

And it was just this perpetual cycle that drove me to actually end up working two jobs while I was going to school, just to have that flexibility. So it was just a connection I made that money was good. And the more I had of it, the more good I could do. 

Bob: Yeah. And it’s beautiful. I love it. And that’s honestly a passion of Linda and ours too. It’s the same motivation. We don’t need any more money, our needs are taken care of. But part of our driving force is, we want it to be able to give more. And that’s why we feel like we’re on the earth.

Jobs and Callings

Bob: I just love that you found that at such a young age. I didn’t. I had pretty rocky beliefs about money at that point for me. But, was that never a struggle for you? Did you not ever have any negative beliefs around money?

Derrick: Well, I’ll take you now to my first job out of college. And this is when I observed my dad’s negative belief about money. And how it could impact me.

Job dissatisfication

So I was in a job first job out of college. And at this job, my boss would regularly say on Friday afternoon, “Hey, by the way, guys, Saturday is a work day.” And we would just hang our heads. 

Bob: Oh wow. 

Derrick: And I have to call my wife and say, “honey, our plans we made are dashed. I’ve got to work.” This was also the company where my tithing check bounced twice.

So imagine your pastor calling you and saying, “Hey, Derrick, I don’t know how to tell you this, but the check you wrote for tithing didn’t clear Well, that meant that the business account from which my paycheck came from, the money wasn’t there. And we didn’t have extra money to go around. So there was a point I reached where it was an epiphany that I had, and it was a path of two choices.

Betting on yourself

And one path was I could stay in a job like that, or that job. And depend on someone else to always tell me what my value was at that point through raises evaluations, et cetera. And that was the path my dad flirted with, but he stuck there. The other path, the one less worn was: bet on yourself, follow God’s leading, ask for wisdom, ask him for favor and provision and go on your own.

And that was the path that I took. And for about four months, while working full time, I was getting licensed in the evenings. I was studying weekends, evenings, any time available. I’d go on my lunch break to the library, come back.

And after four months of working and training, I was told “Derrick you’re going to fail. Yeah, you don’t have enough money in cash reserves. What do you know about money? What do you know about business?” So all of these really affirming voices that were out there were really cheering me on.

What God is calling you to do

Derrick: But I just felt a sense that… “Derrick, this is my calling for you and this is what you need to do.” And I really hearkened back to being teased as a kid. And sensing that my Dad so often had come to the precipice of wanting to take a risk, but he couldn’t cross that chasm. You know? Like in the movie of Indiana Jones, when there is that faith based scene, he couldn’t do that because he couldn’t see it.

The value of money

Derrick: Funny story, my mom asked me, this was probably five years ago. She said, “Derrick, can I ask you a question?” And I could tell she was very serious, very stoic. She said, “are you a millionaire?” And the question blew me back because yes, I was a millionaire, but I didn’t think much about that. Because I recognize first of all, a million dollars doesn’t buy you a whole lot these days.

And if you’re in business, typically get into the first million is the hardest. And then you just build on that (how you can become a millionaire by investing). 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: And I said, “Yeah, yeah mom. I am.” And she was like, amazed. Like, oh my gosh, my son has made it. And so whether it was generationally or just how my parents thought, boy, if you get to a million dollars, you’ve made it.

Well, I know I haven’t made it. And that’s what keeps driving me and fueling me to say, Hey, let’s, let’s go make more, but not just for what the world says and culture says, have the biggest bank account and have the best car and the biggest house. I want to make more because I just like making money.

Adding value to the life of people around you

To me, it’s a game of how much value can I add to people and how many people’s problems can I solve? And therefore make more money because I’m helping them make more money. Which I can then give more away. So that just how I see it. And it’s what fuels me and really gives me fulfillment every single day.

Bob: Yeah. That’s great. Well, I’d love to hear from you in terms of, you’ve worked with a lot of people. You’ve talked to a lot of different people about money over the years.

Bad money beliefs

Bob:What attitudes have you seen that seem to be particularly limiting or destructive that you think hold people back?

Derrick: Well, I’ll give a shameless plug to my book here, Good Money Revolution. One of the things I talk about in my book is bad money beliefs. And I’ll tell you a story. There was a woman who I’d worked with for many years.

Fear of making a bad decision

Derrick: I was in my office on a Saturday catching up and I saw my voicemail light blinking and I recognized just a voice inside. I think it was the Holy Spirit telling me you need to listen to this message.

So I pressed the button and this frantic woman’s voice. This client I just mentioned was on there. She said, “Derrick, you have to call me back right away. Somehow I wrote a check, there wasn’t money in my account to cover it. And now I’m going to go to jail.”

Well, if you can imagine the shock and surprise if someone said that to you. So I knew I couldn’t wait till Monday to call her back. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: I quickly picked up a phone dial did, and I said, tell me what happened. She said, “Derrick this was my fault. I wrote a check. I didn’t move money from my savings to checking to cover it. And now they’re going to send me to jail.”

I said, “okay, timeout. First of all, let’s call the bank together Monday. We can take care of moving the money and no problem. We’ll take care of that part. But why in the world, do you think you’re going to go to jail?”

So she goes back and tells me the story, Bob, this negative belief she had went back to when she was a seven year old. She says “when I was a seven-year-old, I overheard my dad on a phone call and the store manager called him, who he had just bought school supplies and clothes for her and her siblings,” and said “you bounced a check and I’m going to call the police and send you to jail.”

So this seven-year-old girl thought, if I bounce a check, I go to jail. She’s now 55 years old. So in that moment I recognize and really have this idea. Here was a woman who had always been hesitant on making bold investment decisions. There were many times I’d recommended a couple of different stocks that had just gone public that had done really well, but she opted not to participate. Or she wasn’t able to make decisions that caused her to really advance in our company.

And it gave me perspective that she feared making a bad decision. And if she made a bad decision, something bad would happen to her.

It opened up an entirely new relationship with us in terms of our working together. So we then began to talk about it afterwards. And she began to really blossom financially and professionally because we were able to take a big eraser and take out this false thinking she had. 

If only I had more money…

Another example. I would tell you would be so many people grow up, maybe some people listening right now, they might’ve seen their mom or dad or grandma or grandpa bang their fist on the table and say, “if only we had more money, then we could do this. Then we could do that.”

And as a young child, you’re only left to see that, “my gosh, if we don’t have any money, we can’t be happy and move forward in our lives.” What that does is it just holds people back.

I believe as I think you do too, Bob, we’re called to be potential extractors of people. God forbid if my kids ever saw me talk like that or even act like that, I don’t want them to be limited in terms of the potential God has given to them.

Pressure to share your finances out of obligation

Derick: You know, I just talked to my kids just yesterday. We had a family zoom call. I was talking to somebody just about culture and they talked about how there’s really pressure being put on people who are making money these days to have to share it with other people and not in a positive way, but out of obligation so that everything is equal.

I told my kids, look, I’m not going to force this on you. And don’t think there’s pressure from your dad, but now is the time that you need to have your own business. As you go to college, decide not to go to college. I want you to have a mentality that you need to have something of your own, that whatever the government does in the future, whatever culture does, whatever the regulations may be, you can control that.

You can still complain, but it’s better to complain about government policy while you’re controlling your ability to make income and add value to other people on your terms.

Bob: Yeah, that’s good. Back to the story you shared about the woman having that fear. I’ve seen instances like that, situations like that. And it just never ceases to amaze me that the beliefs that people have carried and oftentimes for a long time, like 50 years or something.

That are birthed out of one conversation or one thing like that. So are there any other attitudes you share in the book that are worth bringing up?

Finding your generosity purpose

Derrick: Yeah, another story in the book I talk about is one of my clients named Dave. So Dave came to my office several years ago and this was a successful businessman. He loved going to the office. He loved working there. His family worked as part of the business. But what he realized was he was working just to build up his bank account.

And he said, “Derrick, I’m not feeling fulfilled anymore.” And Bob, for whatever reason, I think it was the Holy Spirit. The Word just jumped out of my mouth and I asked him, “is there a cause that you care deeply about?”

Well, I could tell the question caught Dave by surprise. He leaned back in his chair. He began to kind of look off to the left a little bit. And he told me a story about how he and his family had gone overseas. A village they had visited, the guide mentioned that there was a school house that needed to be built because it was holding back this entire village. The lack of education.

Bob: Oh wow. 

Derrick: He remembered a glance with his wife and back and forth those non-verbal things. And as if to say, wouldn’t it be cool to build a school? Well they get back to The States, years go by, life gets busy, business grows.

So my question took him back to that moment. And he said, “Derrick, I would love to build a school for that village.” So I proposed a question. I said, “Dave, what if you did this? What if you said over the next six months, you’re going to set a sales goal. And half of that increase would go to fund that school?” Well, his eyes got as big as saucers. We talked about some ideas, exchange, some more small talk and he leaves the office.

He comes back in three months later, this guy looks completely different. He looks younger, more invigorated, all in the game. He said “Derrick what you said to me at first, I was a bit skeptical about it. But I said… there’s nothing to lose.”

So he let all of his customers know that going forward. And I talk about this in the book. His generosity purpose as I call it, would be that a portion of all of his sales would go to provide a school in this village.

Give a cause to your cash and meaning to your money

Derrick: And his customers got excited and they recognize they could buy Dave’s product from anybody, but they couldn’t buy his cause from anybody else. So his customers got excited, they referred to other people. Dave got excited because now he had a purpose and a reason to go to the office to add more value to people’s lives, grow more sales.

He tells me the great news that he’s already funded half of that school. Now picture this. So, here are two guys, myself and Dave in the office. And I’m not overly emotional, but it was a moment of connection between the two of us rise saw a transformation occur. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Doing things God’s way

Derrick: Here was a guy that wanted to serve God. Wanted to build a business to honor God and honor his team. And now we found a new compelling way to do it. So his money belief was about previously, Hey, let’s just go make money. And that wasn’t very motivating. But when he tied a cause to his cash and meaning to his money, suddenly his business grew and he was able to give a whole lot more. And he built his business even more.

Bob: Yep. I love that. And I love the synergy. I just feel like that’s the way it works when you do things God’s way. And when you seek to give first, it just unlocks things. And it just opens things up and yeah, I just love that. 

When God calls you to give

Bob: So one thing I wanted to ask you, because giving is such a big part of everything you do in such a driving force and factor. I’d love for you to share. just one of your own stories in your own life when you’ve gotten to be generous in a particular way and something that was particularly meaningful to you, or that stands out. And even if it was anonymous, you can share it here. We won’t tell. 

Derrick: Well, I’ll tell you a craziest story. I don’t share this story that often. So this would have been about 15 years ago. I was really feeling like God was calling me to give a certain amount of money to our church and specifically, he said give away payroll for the next two weeks. 

Bob: Oh, wow.

Derrick: Well, if you can imagine all logic was thrown out the door because that may no sense at all. That made no business sense, no financial sense. But what it was, was a sense of created dependency. And I was being put in the situation where I didn’t have any way out. I was putting money in a place where I felt like God was calling me to give it with no expectation. Only belief that he would provide in the way that he would choose to provide. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: Well, I did it and I was nervous. I know God says, God loves a cheerful giver. But in this case I was cheerful, but I was also nervous and anxious and worried at the same time. Being completely transparent here. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: Weeks later, unexpected, bigger clients came in the door. 

Bob: Yep. 

Derrick: My business grew in ways I could not have imagined and didn’t even link it initially. I just knew everything was okay. We met payroll by the nick of time money came in. But our business was blessed. Now am I telling people, “Hey, give to get?” No, but there’s been so many times in my life where I feel like God has worked through adversity and just pure trust to grow me. 

Stepping out in faith

Derrick: You know, I’ll tell you another quick story. When we expanded our business into Dallas, I have an office here in Arlington, and this was when I had my financial planning practice. A practice came available for sale, it was going to double our size. There was no way I could afford this, but I said, okay, God, I keep seeing emails and getting calls about this.

I’m going to lean into this and God, I want you to shut it down. I want it to be the moving car and I’ll wait for him to meet me in the driveway. I’m going to go down this highway and if you want me to take an exit I’ll take the exit. But if not, I’m going to keep going forward here.

And what happened was bank said, no. My brother-in-law stepped in last minute, gave me the down payment and allowed me to get into the practice.

But what happened was I felt like the Holy Spirit said “Derrick, when you make this acquisition, two things will occur. One, you’ll grow closer to me. And number two, you’ll become a better leader.”

Expect adversity

Derrick: And Bob, what happened was what I wouldn’t wish on anybody listening. And that was the agreement I signed was a non-compete with these other advisors. The night I signed it, these advisors began to violate their non-compete agreement.

They began to go back after their clients. It was terrible. I wasn’t prepared for that. I thought if you put your name on the agreement, That meant it’s meant something, but it actually meant nothing. A signature means nothing. Only the person’s integrity means what it really means on an agreement. So I began to hemorrhage money, lose money quite a bit. Talked to my wife. We even talked “man, do we file bankruptcy?” What do we do here? And my wife, you know as we talked and we prayed, we just recognize we have faced adversity before. It’s always better to lean into it than run backward. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Derrick: That’s never the pathway. And so one by one, God just allowed calls to come in from clients, “Hey Derrick, this is what the advisor said to me.” And he began to give me clues. He let what was happening in the dark, be revealed in the light. And we ended up having an office across the highway to avoid those clients seeing those old advisors.

Because I was investing and giving throughout that entire process, my net worth grew at the highest rate it’s ever grown in the midst of the most business, I call it crunchiness now, that I’ve ever experienced.

And as God said, I drew closer to him and I definitely became a better leader. So the lesson, I would just tell your listeners is… 

Bob: Wow. 

Derrick: Don’t think that, “oh my gosh was God on his day off when the adversity is struck me, was he not aware of this?” Know that that’s part of the deal. I mean, even psychologists tell us the average person has three to four crises per year interrupted by the occasional emergency.

That just means if you’re average and most of us are all above average, you’re either going into a crisis or coming out of one. Yeah, just learned to expect it and embrace it to know this is part of God’s plan. 

Bob: Yeah. This is part of how he teaches us so much. Well, that’s really good. So this has been really great.

Good Money Revolution Book

Bob: Again, so where can people find the book? 

Derrick: Yeah. So the best way is on Amazon or wherever you buy your favorite books. Also, you can follow us on Instagram @DerrickTKinney. We post daily content on how to do better with your money. And also for people that want to get the first five chapters for free, you can go to GoodMoneyChapters.com. Good money chapters dot com. Download the first five for free and give it a taste.

Bob: That’s awesome. All right Derrick well this was a great conversation. So thankful that you came and stopped by to chat. And yeah, when I’m in Dallas, maybe we can have some coffee.  

Derrick: That sounds great. I would love that. Thanks for having me today. This was a real pleasure. Thanks for the conversation. 

Bob: Take care.

Derrick: Thank you. 

Stop believing the lies people tell you about yourself

June 30, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

do what you were created to do

I think a lot of us believe lies that we’re told growing up. By friends, inadvertently. I think by family accidentally. Even jokes that are made.

There’s so many different things that shape our beliefs about ourselves. And I think it’s time for it to change.

I think it needs to change. These lies that so many of us believe are holding us back from the potential, from the things that God has for us to do.

We hope to encourage you to stop believing the lies people tell you about yourself.

Now before we get into our answer, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to our Podcast below, or, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

I’m reminded of…

Bob: One of the things I was reminded of with this is, all throughout grade school, English was my worst subject. English and writing grammar, all that stuff was my worst subject. I was pretty good at math, but English was just terrible. In high school. I went to a pretty challenging high school academically and I was really bad in English and it was definitely my worst subject.I got A’s and B pluses and pretty much everything else in English consistently a C. 

Linda: Really? 

Bob: Yeah. And my teachers were not encouraging and pretty much that writing’s “not for you, boy.” And so anyway, through this, I just developed a belief that I’m not a good writer. Like I probably shouldn’t write. Probably shouldn’t become a full-time blogger.

God has a plan for us

And so all of this is really interesting because that’s what God called me to do. And he’s called us to write this book that we just finished (Simple Money, Rich Life).

My point in saying all this is, is that God has helped me tear down some of those lies about myself. Which that’s a whole other thing. And the education system and the grading and the scoring of people by these man-made metrics. 

Linda: Oh boy. We’re gone off on a tangent here. 

Bob: No, it’s like, I’m not going to tear down the modern education system completely, but I think there’s something there that I think we can all acknowledge.

God’s worth in value and what he puts in us, can’t be measured by what a teacher says with a scoring on a sheet. You know what I mean? 

Linda: Well, and also that your education doesn’t end in 12th grade. Or even in college. You can still get better at things as you get older and as you’re out of school. 

Bob: And you should. We should be developing them and trying to move those forward.

Overcoming the lies that hinder you

Bob: But anyway, in terms of my situation as a writer, I definitely had some stuff to overcome because I built up these beliefs just thinking that I’m not a good writer. And when you don’t think you’re good at something you don’t perform, you don’t try as hard as if you actually think that you’re gifted to do it.

So God had to show me that he put something in me, in order for me to really start walking fully in it. Do you know what I mean? 

Linda: Yeah. 

God has a plan

Bob: And the reason I’m bringing this up and I’m tying all these pieces together is because we just got this email that was really interesting in how God tied all this stuff up together.

So the gist of it is, I sent an email out to our email list. If you’re on our email list, you would have seen this email. And it basically it’s a story from the book. I think right in the beginning of part three of the book. And I ended up reading this story in a previous podcast and it was about my career failure, my biggest career failure. Really just my journey through being completely stuck, passed over and in a hopeless situation. And so I shared this email with our email list. And I got this email response back from a reader and it says this:

“Bob, thank you so much for being the voice of God in my darkest season. I’ve been struggling with giving up so much. Trusting God’s will and purpose for my life has never been more difficult. This email you sent today might just have saved my life and I’m weeping as I write this. Thank you so much. Thank you for sending this at the exact time you did today. Thank you and Linda for sharing your story. Every bit of it resonated with everything I need.” 

I see that. And it’s interesting how God works and ties these pieces together. Because I shared a story of my most difficult thing and thing I was struggling with. I wrote that email, you know, I typed keys on a keyboard and communicated my story. And it resonated with this other person, and had a significant impact on them. And, you know, I’m not the best with grammar and I don’t always put the comma on the semi-colon in the right place.

But for me personally, I care a whole lot less about that and a whole lot more about connecting with real human beings.

I’m just really thankful that I stopped believing these lies that I was telling myself that I’m not a good writer and I have nothing to share. And I shouldn’t write. Because even if no one else was impacted by something that I wrote, but just this one person and this one email, it means so much to me. It carries so much weight to me personally.

And so this is one of my struggles and one of the lies that I believed for a long time. 

Showing up and obeying God

Linda: I think there’s something here, in kind of showing up and doing the thing that God asked you to do. Even though you’ve had all this backstory of: you’re not a good writer, this isn’t for you kid, etc. You know? And you’re thinking, “I feel like I’m just supposed to start this blog.” And so you start the blog.

Nobody’s really reading it. It just continues and continues to the point where you’ve written a book now. And the story in the book is having this type of impact on somebody. Because it’s not, oh yeah let’s look and see how good of a writer Bob is. That’s not the point of any of this.

The point is actually that you showed up. You obeyed to do the thing that God was asking you to do. And this is the impact that God is wanting to have in some people’s life. He just needed a person to get the job done. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: I think that’s really encouraging because I think all of us have an area in our lives where we feel like, man, I’m not adequate. And why are you doing this?

I remember just the other day I was having this thing where my brain, like when I was talking, I would have a string of sentence. And then it was almost like a CD was skipping. But it was in my brain. And that night we were teaching our class and I was like, “Bob, you have got to pray for me because I can’t finish a full thought without the skipping thing happening.”

It was really, really weird. And we went that night to teach the class. And it was actually really great, but I thought… 

Bob: It was a great class. 

Linda: I thought this is kind of, I don’t know exactly how Moses felt, but it felt very similar to me where he was like, are you kidding me? I can’t even get out a full sentence and you want me to go speak for your people?

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: It was a similar feeling to me. It reminded me of that. Of how am I supposed to do this thing that you’re wanting me to do.

God takes care of the rest

But it’s funny when you show up, because you’re doing the thing God has for you. He takes care of all those other things. And honestly, it doesn’t matter if I sound like an idiot or not, as long as he’s communicating. And his point is getting across to the person that needs it.

I’ll stand there and look like an idiot all day long. You know what I mean? It’s kind of like, who cares? If God’s going to use it that’s all that matters, right? 

Bob: Yeah.

Our encouragement to you

Bob: So I think the encouragement if you’re reading this, just analyze. Like, look around, see if there’s some lies that you’re still believing that are holding you back. And you might know this, you might be well aware of what those lies are. But if you don’t, just know they might be there.

Pray

I would just prayerfully dig into that because. You know, because this is a big part of what God has called me to do, is to write. And for such a long time, I was bound up by these lies that I was believing.

I think that’s a ploy of the enemy that he’s using for a lot of the church right now. Getting us to miss and not believe that there’s a gifting inside of us. Gifts that God put inside of us. For us not to believe that it’s there. I think that it’s not good. I think that’s not good enough for us to think any of these things.

The reality is that the church needs you. We need you to be doing what God has created you to do. So whatever that is, chase after it run after it keep seeking God and don’t give up and do what you were created to do!

Linda: Yes. 

Bob: All right. So as always, thanks for joining us today. 

Linda: Yes. 

Podcast Reviews

Bob: And I just want read a couple of reviews we’ve gotten on our podcast. This is from Guy Smith. And he said,

“Bob humbly shares as he learns. I’ve been reading Bob’s blog for many years and always respected his authenticity. Seems laid back…” 

Bob: Do you think I’m laid back?

Linda: Yeah.

Bob: I am laid back, y’all. 

“… and sharing to help what he learns as he grows himself. Thanks Bob, for all you.”

Linda: Yeah. I think this is one of those things too, where it’s like, we’ve walked through this and you know? That is the goal. But I think that’s the goal of the body of Christ, to share stuff as we learn it so that we can help others.

Bob: Yeah. Yeah. So this is from H. Schiesher:

“Love it, Bob and Linda. I love listening to your podcast as I’m getting ready for work in the morning. They appreciate that your message of finance is always Christ centered. Thank you for sharing your message!”

Linda: Awesome. 

Bob: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Yeah. See, this, this jazzes us up! Like this is what we do when we get bored. We just go read iTunes reviews.

Linda: And then we get all jazzed up. 

Bob: Yeah. So, yeah, if you want to leave us an iTunes review, we would appreciate that. Maybe it’ll make us excited and tear up. And maybe we’ll read it on the next episode. But anyway, that is all we have for today. Be blessed, be a blessing, and we’ll see you soon. 

Jordan Raynor on creativity and God

June 3, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video I recorded with Jordan Raynor. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

Jordan Raynor is a serial entrepreneur best-selling author, and he wrote this book on creativity and God that I’m excited to read to my kids.

It’s a really cool book because as most parents know, you are reading all these books to your kids. They are given as gifts, you buy some and you end up having 50-100 books stacked up.

And to be honest, most of them contain mediocre content that isn’t necessarily something that I want to teach my kids. And it’s like, “eh, it’s not really harming them.”

So when you get a book that actually teaches them a lesson that you’re excited about, it’s really good. Jordan just finished his book “The Creator In You,” and we’re excited to chat with him a little bit about this today.

Now before we get into the details of the book, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast. But, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Wanting more than just mediocre books for our kids

Bob: So Jordan, thank you for taking a few minutes and chatting today, brother.

Jordan: It’s always good to hang out with you, Bob. Thanks for having me. 

Bob: All right. So tell us a little bit about your family where you live, you know, just you, your situation. Give us some backstory. 

Jordan: Yeah. So I live in beautiful Tampa, Florida with my bride, Cara and our three very young daughters: Ellison who’s seven, Kate who’s five, and Emery who we adopted two years ago.

And, man…, I could totally resonate with what you were saying about children’s books. There’s so many, it’s such a cluttered market. Most of them are mediocre and they’re all cute, but they’re not really inspiring and teaching our kids really big ideas.

Genesis One, from a new perspective

Jordan: And for me, that’s kind of the genesis for this book. I had probably read my kids a dozen books on Genesis One, on the creation account. And they all follow the exact same pattern. God created this on day one. He created that on day 3, 4, 5, 6 the end. And these books drive me bonkers because the sixth day wasn’t the end of creation, it was the beginning.

It’s when God passed the baton us. It’s a go, fill and subdue the earth. And so I wrote “The Creator In You” to help my kids, your kids, the kids of our audience understand this at an early age. It’s essentially a three act play that you will read in three minutes.

Act one is what you see in every other Genesis One book, right? God created in those first six days, but then about a third of the way through the book, it says this. It says, “and now you might think that our story is ending because every other book tells you it’s ending.” But in fact, this is just the beginning because God made you to look like him to act and work and create with him.

And then act three is watching kids respond to that and fill the earth with art and businesses and commerce and tree forts and spaceships and culture. As my kids have really dug into the book, they really enjoyed it. Which has been like so fun for me to watch… 

Bob: Yeah, I bet. 

Jordan: I’m watching them view everything from art projects around the house, to their homework, to their chores, with just a different level of purpose and joy. Because they now understand that those things are ordained by the God of the Universe. 

Bob: Yeah. I love that.

Called to create/work

Bob: The first book I discovered you on was your book “Called To Create.” 

Jordan: And now this is the kids’ version of Called To Create, for sure. 

Bob: Yeah. And I remember reading your book, it was just such a great book (check out all of our books, too!). And it’s clear that this is part of your life’s message to get out, which I think is such an important one. 

Because, you made this statement that work existed before sin. And that’s such an interesting thing I’ve never thought of before. What are your thoughts on that? 

God leads by example

Jordan: I think one of the biggest misconceptions in the church today, we believe that work is the curse and that’s not true.

It’s not what we see in Genesis One. First of all, the very first thing, the very first line in scripture is God coming onto the scene as a creator and a worker, right? Work could not possibly have a more exalted inauguration. The God of the universe works. No other religion makes this claim.

Every other religion says that the gods created human beings to do the menial labor in the world and serve the gods. Only Christianity starts with the God who himself works. It’s radical, right? 

Bob: Yeah. 

We are created for creation

Jordan: But he doesn’t finish creation all by himself. He could have created the stars and a telescope in six days, but instead he passed the baton of creation to his kids.

And before there was the great commission in the world, there was the first commission. The call to create. To go take the Garden of Eden and create the garden city, the eternal kingdom of God. And it’s only at Genesis Three when sin enters the world that work is now under the curse. It is difficult. There are thorns and thistles that make our work difficult.

I think we all experience this every day, but work itself it’s not the curse. And the way we really know this is because when we get a picture, an accurate picture of heaven, there’s even work in heaven on the new earth. Isaiah 65 says:

“God’s chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands.”

We were created, not for luxury, not for leisure, not for consumption, but for creation. And reigning and ruling over this world to be productive.

Right? It’s a radical message. 

Finding the work you were created for

Bob: So I spent a lot of years in a job doing work that I didn’t feel gifted for. Didn’t feel gifted at and just struggled. It was just hard because I just didn’t feel gifted for the task and therefore wasn’t good. Even though I worked really hard, I’ve always been a hard worker. But I remember the difficulty of that (how I escaped the rat race). And then contrast that with once I got into some work, doing work that I felt uniquely gifted for, that God had created me for.

And part of that, being a creative part of the work, being a creative process, I mean even like this as we’re doing a podcast and the creation of this, it’s been so fulfilling. It’s been so helpful. But my question, pulling this together is for you.

Having a new perspective

Bob: Have you gone through that? Have you had those seasons like that? Where the process of doing work was a lot less enjoyable. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Bob: And then how do you speak to someone who is dealing with that? 

Jordan: Yeah, it’s such a good question. So number one. Yeah, I have had those seasons. I have had those jobs that were just J-O-Bs. I hated them. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Jordan: I wish I had a good theology of work back then, so I could have looked on those jobs, even the bad ones with Thanksgiving. I unfortunately didn’t. But here’s what I would say. The apostle Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10, that the very purpose of our salvation is to do the quote unquote

“good works that God prepared in advance for us to do.”

So it’s this wild idea that before you were born, God established a specific kind of work for you to do in the world. And the reality is because of sin, a lot of us aren’t doing that work, right? So if you’re in that space, you’re like, this is clearly not what God created me to do. I think there’s a couple of things you could do.

Number one, I think you could recognize that while it’s hard, you have employment, hopefully. And praise the Lord for that. And do that “work heartily as unto the Lord, knowing that there’s a reward for you for doing that job well,” see Colossians 3, right? 

Planting seeds

Jordan: But number two, it may mean that you’re called to do something else. So while you’re serving your current employer through the ministry of excellence, place some little bets. Like you I’m sure did Bob, outside of the day job to planting seeds.

We’re on the SeedTime podcast. Start planting seeds, and then look around and see which seeds are starting to show signs of fruit. Starting to show signs of this miracle, divine multiplication that Jesus is getting at in The Parable of the Sower. The seeds that are producing fruit, that you cannot explain through your own feeble inputs. And then, as long as it’s economically viable, pour all of your time and money and energy into that thing. Put all of your eggs in that basket. 

Bob: Yeah, that’s great. 

Jordan: That’s what my story in a lot of ways. 

Bob: Yeah. That’s good. So I wanted to kind of jump around here with a few different directions and questions.

There’s so much that is yet to be discovered

Bob: But one thing I was thinking about Linda and I were on a plane the other day. And I don’t know why, but I always like to compare modern 21st century life to the rest of the history of the world and how humans have lived in all the centuries before. And I was having this thought as we’re flying on an airplane and looking down at how everything is in perfect squares, from whatever 40,000 feet 20,000 feet, whatever it is.

And I just had this thought. Prior to the last hundred years or so, no one ever had this view. Like no one was ever able to see this. Which reminded me of something else.

So they’re building these deep sea machines to go down in the ocean and take pictures and stuff. And they still can’t make it all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Yet there’s creatures down there that God created that no one has been able to see.

I mean, literally some of them just weren’t discovered until the last couple of years, because they finally got something a little bit lower and they were able to take a picture of this crazy fish or something down there. But there’s so much more.

So I’m curious, how does that speak to you? Knowing that God created all these things, knowing that the vast majority of humanity would never see it. What are your thoughts on that? 

Our infinitely creative God

Jordan: I love this. So to me it means a couple of things. Number one, We worship the infinitely creative God. I was at a butterfly exhibit with my kids the other day. And we were trying to guess as to how many different species of butterflies there are in the world.

We were guessing like 500-1,000. 17,500 species of butterflies. That is needless, purposeless, excessive, extravagant beauty. The God of the Bible, doesn’t just create for function and order. He creates with extravagant, beauty and creativity. And thus, we can too, without having to give an objective justification for everything that we’re doing.

We can never learn everything

Jordan: Here’s the second thing that I make of it though. We can never learn all there is to learn about God. I think there are some people who believe that the moment we go to heaven, we’re going to suddenly know everything. Well, if we know everything, then we’re God. That’s not the case.

And for me it fuels my hope for heaven and for eternity, when God brings heaven to earth. Knowing that for all eternity, we are going to get to explore the depths of the oceans, the heights of the heavens and exploring how God created this world.

I just had this astrophysicist for NASA on my podcast, talking about how we can’t even begin to scratch the surface of how many galaxies and planets there are in the world. But she was imagining. She was like, “Hey, why won’t we be able to do this on the new earth? We know that there are new heavens. We know that there’s going to be work to do.”

Maybe we’re going to be spending eternity, literally blasting into outer space to marvel at the creativity and the glory of God. That fires me up way more than this American character of heaven being us sitting around all day, playing harps and singing hymns. 

Bob: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s really, really cool.

Jesus the “gardener?”

Bob: You mentioned something else I thought was interesting too. And I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. You said this thing about Adam and Eve gardening and then Jesus being mistaken for a gardener. And that there’s a connection here. Let’s chat about that. Can you explain? 

Jordan: Oh man, I’d love to. So this book, The Creator In You, is really all about that first scene of Genesis 1 & 2. God putting Adam and Eve to work in the garden. Because God didn’t want to create on his own. He stopped his work of creation after six days and told us to go fill and subdue the earth. And there’s this little detail in John’s account of Jesus’ resurrection on Easter.

It’s found in John chapter 20, it’s fascinating. It says that when Mary Magdalene turned around and looked at Jesus, she mistook him for a gardener. And we always breeze past this seemingly insignificant detail. 

Bob: Yeah. 

The church is to cultivate the garden

Jordan: But I was talking to one of the world’s top New Testament scholars, this brilliant guy named Dr. N.T. Wright. And he said, “Jordan, this is not a mistake, this is very intentional.”

What? What’s happening here?

“Think about this. God is inaugurating a new world, the second creation, the final creation. And Jesus had been mistaken as a gardener because John is pointing us back to the Garden of Eden where God inaugurated the first creation. He didn’t create it alone. Adam was called to garden it.

And just like the first Adam had his bride Eve to help him cultivate and garden the first creation. Jesus, the gardner has his bride the church to help him cultivate the final one. Jesus never said that heaven is going to come in one fell swoop.”

He said, “it’s going to come slowly like a mustard seed growing into a tree.” Like yeast folding into dough. The kingdom of heaven comes at least in part through you and me working in the power of the spirit to yank pieces of heaven on earth right now in the present. And it’s this beautiful symbol of Jesus appearing as the gardener, that I think is there to remind us of that mission.

Bob: Yeah, that’s so good. I love that.

Teaching our kids about purpose and work

Bob: So, obviously you wrote this book out of the same frustration as me of the book “Goodnight moon.” It’s like, okay. Yeah, great. It’s a book. But like, it’s just a book. Why not put something of value of what we’re trying to teach our kids in it? But anyway, so obviously you did that for your kids, but what are you doing besides that? Beyond that, to help nurture these things and teach them and help them grow in this area?

Being intentional with your kids

Jordan: Yeah. So, beyond the book just one real practical thing that I’m trying to be really intentional about in order to cultivate a sense of God-ordained joy and purpose about work early in my kids.

I talk about the good things of work and not just the hard things every night at dinner. So we play two truths and one lie every night at the dinner table. Great way to get your kids to talk about their day, right?

So they go first and then I go. And, sometimes I’ll talk about something that was difficult at work, “Awe man, Daddy really couldn’t outline this chapter of a book today.”

But most times I’ll say something good. I’ll say, “Hey, I got to talk to my friend, Bob. And all of his listeners on this podcast (and readers of his blog). What a blessing God has given me gifts that I can go serve Bob and his audience and help people understand how their faith connects with the work. Isn’t God so cool? Isn’t that awesome they do that?”

It’s the little things

Jordan: And you listening right now (or reading the blog), maybe you’re a CPA or you’re a mechanic, nurse, whatever. But telling your kids, “Hey, Mommy helped a customer solve a problem today.” Something as basic as that. Or, “Daddy gave a killer sales presentation and it just felt really, really good.”

Little things that plant in our kids’ minds that work is good. We don’t walk around just saying, “thank God it’s Friday!” We also talk about the good stuff that God is doing in and through our work. 

Bob: I love that. That’s such a good idea.

Closing

Bob: So anyway, I appreciate you coming on chatting. And everybody run out and grab this book. It’s called “The Creator In You.” I am excited to read it to my kids tonight. We’re actually going to go through it for the first time. I read through it already and it’s just a great book.

It’s a great message. I’m glad you wrote it, Jordan. Thanks again for coming on and chatting about all this. I’m assuming people can find this at Amazon. It’s in stock now? 

Jordan: Yes, it’s in stock. It was out of stock for two weeks. We sold out week one. But it should be there when you’re listening to this and go pick up a copy on Amazon or wherever you buy your books. But let’s face it. That means Amazon, right? We’re on the same page here. Yeah? 

Bob: Yeah. Amazon will be where most of us go, but anyway. You guys can find Jordan… are you @JordanRaynor? 

Jordan: And yeah, @JordanRaynor. And then just JordanRaynor.com, J-O-R-D-A-N-R-A-Y-N-O-R .com. 

Bob: Awesome. All right, man. Well, thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing.

Jordan: Thank you, Bob. Take care. 

How we take a 1 month sabbatical every year

June 3, 2022 By Bob Lotich, CEPF®

(The following is an abbreviated transcription from a video Linda and I recorded. Please excuse any typos or errors.)

what a month long sabbatical looks like for us

We received a question from a reader about our yearly month sabbatical. And so we wanna talk a little bit about it.

Robin reached out and asked us this question: 

“I love the idea of a sabbatical. I’m so happy that we can take one. But you’d love to hear a podcast on how to do that with younger kiddos at home. And then other practical steps. Like, do we take the month off from cooking? What about laundry?” All these different things…

We’re going to explain what a month’s sabbatical looks like for us.

The preface here is that I don’t think there’s necessarily a right or wrong way, but we’re gonna share what that looks like for us.

Now before we get into our answer, I recorded our discussion that you can listen to on our Podcast, but, if you would rather read the full transcription, you can do so here in this article!

Also, we actually took a sabbatical year in 2017 so if you want to read about that you can.

We just got back from our sabbatical month

Bob: Hey, all we are back and talking about sabbatical today. Why don’t you tell ’em about our sabbatical we just got back from? 

Linda: So we just got back from taking a month long sabbatical. We went to the Seaside area, 30A in Florida. Which is great.

Bob: We do this every year. And I think we talk about this a lot.

Linda: The location changes every year. 

Bob: Yeah. but typically in the Winter. 

Linda: In the Winter, yes. Typically we go in the month of February because I remember when I was working a job everybody would leave like the first week of February, cuz it’s the most miserable part of the Winter. And so I wanna be gone for February.

So we typically go either the month of February or this time it was January 15th through February 15th. 

Bob: Yeah. So the month long sabbatical, we’ve been doing this for about 10 years now. And, it’s life changing. You’ve probably heard me talk about it before. And we’ll just continue to talk about how great it is.

I understand that not everybody can take a month off, we get that. But some are asking questions about it and so we like sharing what we can from our sabbaticals, because I feel like we’ve learned a whole lot from this.

Over the years, we’ve seen people do it the wrong way. And, we’ve seen people do it the right way. Not that there is necessarily a wrong or right way to take a sabbatical.

Linda: Right. 

Bob: But if you want to get the greatest benefits from it, I think… 

Linda: We have some tips. We have some ideas. 

Bob: …that have helped us. We’ve just made a lot of mistakes. And so we’ve learned from our mistakes and maybe you can learn from our mistakes as well. 

Linda: Right. 

Reader question about our month-long sabbatical

Bob: So anyway, Robin (a member of our SeedTime community) reached out and asked us this question. She asked,

“I love the idea of a sabbatical. I’m so happy that we can take one. But we’d love to hear a podcast on how to do that with younger kiddos at home. And then other practical steps. Like, do we take the month off from cooking? What about laundry?”

All these different things… And so, let’s just get into these weeds and just explain what that month looks like for us.

What a month long sabbatical looks like for us

Bob: The preface here is that I don’t think there’s necessarily a right or wrong way. Maybe there’s a wrong way. I don’t know, but we’re gonna share what that looks like for us.

Linda: Right. 

Bob: What right and what wrong looks like for us. 

Linda: So we can quickly just say how we’ve practically done this. 

Bob: Yeah.

Linda: For 10 years, is that you basically have…

Bob: Well, it was different before kids, so it’s a different thing. 

How my business survives while I’m on sabbatical

Linda: Right. But I also mean that you have someone helping you with emails and you have chosen to just put basically the business aside for one month. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: The nature of what we do: creating podcasts, writing articles, writing books, all this stuff it allows a flexibility. That doesn’t mean it’s not without challenge. It was really difficult to take a month sabbatical the first time. I was just as nervous as anyone else. Possibly more so than someone with a job asking their boss to take a month off. Because at the end of the day…

Linda: It all depends on you.

Bob: Yeah. The first time we did this, I thought I was going to come back and the business was going to be gone. Like, this is just crazy! But God worked it out (check out these Bible verses about business). And we’ve done it over and over again. And he continues to work it out. And we’re receiving the benefits of that biblical rest.

Linda: Right. 

Bob: That’s why we continue. 

Preparation is key for a beneficial sabbatical

Linda: So we continue preparation. We prepare ahead of time basically. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: So that we can be afforded this opportunity, which is wonderful. And I think now that we’ve done it, we’ve seen how beneficial it is and we wouldn’t go back.

Bob: We wouldn’t go back where? 

Linda: I just wouldn’t go back to not taking a sabbatical. Because it’s not just “like, oh yeah, that’s fun.” It’s actually highly beneficial for our spiritual walk with God, for our relationship with our kids, and for our relationship with each other. 

Quality time

Bob: Well, yeah, and the family. It’s an extended period of time where I can hang out with the kids a lot. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: And I think when they’re grown up, I think they’re gonna remember.

Linda: Yeah. Everybody says that’s time you’ll never get back. When they’re little, you will never get that time back. And I keep thinking of that. Our youngest is about to turn three in a couple days and I just keep thinking he’ll never be two again. He will never ever be two again. This is making me really sad. But I feel like I have taken advantage of this time with him, which is good. 

Bob: Yeah, we’re doing our best, just like every other parent, you know? 

Linda: Right. 

Taking a sabbatical without kids

Bob: So let’s start getting in some of the weeds of some of taking a sabbatical. This whole thing started really as my sabbatical, because when we started you were already retired. 

Linda: We didn’t have kids.

Bob: Right? Linda was retired from her church job that she had. Our business was doing well at that point. And so I kind of brought her back into the business. 

Linda: And I was helping you a little bit, but it wasn’t enough to…

Bob: Definitely not full-time by any means. And so those first couple sabbaticals, we didn’t have kids and it was you and me. And so we’d go to the beach and literally I would bring a stack of 30 books and try to just read. 

Linda: He would do nothing but read. 

Bob: Really! Five, six hours a day. And we’d spend time praying together every day. We’d spend time kind of planning out the year with God. 

Linda: And playing. 

Bob: Having fun. Yeah. All this stuff. 

Setting boundaries

Linda: And we didn’t allow ourselves to watch TV during the day. We said it’s okay to watch TV at night, but we cut off all TV. 

Bob: Nothing until like 8pm or something. 

Linda: Yeah, it was actual time to renew ourselves and to get in The Word. Because we had that boundary, which for us was a temptation at least.

Bob: Yeah. Everybody will have temptations. So it’s important to set those boundaries on whatever your temptations are. And so if that’s Instagram, and you’re afraid you’re gonna spend six hours a day on Instagram, then… 

Linda: No Instagram till 8pm. 

Bob: Or delete the app, or whatever you need to do. But the point is those little rules that you make, I think are one of the most important things to getting the benefits from the sabbatical. And if you don’t do those, if you don’t create that structure, you’re gonna miss out on a lot of the benefits. 

Welcoming boredom

Linda: Yeah, one of the things that you’ve told me before is you’re like, “I can’t wait to be bored.” You know, as adults, we rarely get bored. 

Bob: Well, as adults in 21st century, boredom basically doesn’t exist.

Linda: And so one of Bob’s goals basically is to get bored to where he is like, I’m just bored. 

Bob: I don’t remember who this was that said this but I was reading about somebody, probably one of our great leaders from hundreds of years ago, who talked about how that time (and not like, boredom in the idle hands or the devil’s play work type of boredom) as in giving your brain space to think without just a constant bombardment. That’s what I’m after.

The need for decompressing

Bob: That’s the goal, or one of the big goals, of the sabbatical for me. How do I decompress my brain so I can get out of the weeds and get up to the 50,000 foot view again and actually make life decisions. Actually evaluate my life and where we’ve been, where we’re going all this in a much higher view than down in the weeds.

That’s the goal. And that’s what I mean by boredom.

So what about you? Linda hates being bored.

Linda: I do. 

Bob: So how did that work for you? 

Boredom and the need for a sense of purpose

Linda: Well, it’s not just being bored. It’s feeling like there’s no sense of adventure or sense of purpose for me. That’s what it is.

And this has honestly been a big struggle with the kids. I don’t like sitting in the house with the kids where they are running in circles, screaming, fighting, hitting each other… that I can’t go to the bathroom. 

Bob: Well, they never do that.

Linda: I try to avoid that. I need something to do with them. That’s one of my struggles. It’s less about being bored and about being quiet as it is… I don’t want to just be the referee all day long. 

How we structure a sabbatical with kids

Linda: So let’s get into what it looks like, being on a sabbatical with the kids. 

Bob: So,that above was pre kids. Which it’s honestly easy to have a sabbatical without kids. Once you add a baby and multiple babies and kids into the mix, it becomes a lot more complicated. And I think really easy to waste the entire sabbatical period.

Linda: Absolutely. 

Bob: Why don’t you just start talking about. How we structure things. 

Linda: So yeah, with kids, what we do is we basically take every other day. So instead of when we had no kids, it was all day, every day, you just do whatever you want. Go where the spirit leads

you. Go where the wind blows you, whatever. So with kids, we had to be start getting really intentional. So I think it was just, we just had Alden the first time and it was every other day. So Bob would leave. 

Bob: I would take Monday. 

Linda: And for him, he was like “I want to be gone as long as I want to be gone and I don’t want pressure to come home.”

So that became our thing because that stressed him out, and it made it so that he couldn’t rest. 

Bob: Yeah. So I don’t understand this, it’s just a psychological thing for me. But I didn’t want, and I still don’t, and we still do this today… I don’t want a clock ticking. 

That clock ticking, says you have to be done by this point and home at this point. I just want it to be a wide open window where I can go and pray on the beach for three hours if I want. Or, I can go read at a coffee shop. I can go to the library and read. I can do whatever I need to do, as long as it needs… without that window ending.

Now typically, most days I leave in the morning and I’m back by lunch or a little bit after. It’s not like it’s 6:00 PM when I return, maybe one day was really late, but not usually.

Checking in with your spouse 

Linda: When we’re going to have those longer sabbatical days, we checked in with each other because we only had one car available. And the person whose day it was got to leave, so and they took the car.

So if it wasn’t your sabbatical day and you’re at home with the kids, you either have a bike or could walk, but if it’s raining or cold or something, then you pretty much can’t leave. So that was one of those things that we were constantly like “okay, if you’re gonna be gone this long, that’s totally fine. Could we just somehow work it out?”

Bob: We’d talk about the car situation. 

Linda: Which I stand by the idea that I would like to have a car next time. I would like to have two cars during our sabbatical next time.

Bob: All right. Well, we’ll talk about that together.

Linda: I know Bob doesn’t want me to do it, but I really do. 

Bob: We don’t need to bring it on the podcast. Anyway. 

Linda: Anyway. 

Bob: So that’s our rhythm where we alternate days. And so if she’s gone, then I’m with the kids. And I’m just trying to make memories and have fun with the kids. And do whatever I can. 

Rest can look different

Linda: The most rest I can get is being away from the kids, which sounds really terrible. And I don’t mean to sound terrible. 

Bob: No it doesn’t, it sounds like a worn out mom who just needs some alone time. 

Linda: For me, the real rest comes not from being away from our business, but actually from being away from the kids. And it’s not being physically away from them as much as it is having to do the referee thing.

Realistic expectations can avoid disappointment

Linda: It’s an adjustment every single time for me. On this trip you told me, you said “It’s like we’re at home. Unless it’s your day to be on sabbatical. We just need to just go into the day thinking this is just like every other day. It’s not rest.” 

Bob: Yeah, sabbatical is just in a different location.

Linda: Yeah. The day is not a sabbatical day for me unless it’s my day to be gone. And we’ll just be thankful for our days of rest. 

Bob: Because if you don’t have that expectation set, you’re gonna probably be sorely disappointed the whole sabbatical if you have a bunch of kids. 

Linda: Which was me. I was completely frazzled. And Bob’s said “you have to stop looking at it like this is your time to rest while you’re taking care of the kids. Like it just isn’t.” 

Leave your location

Bob: And within that, let me add another thing that I thought of. Which I probably talked about before, but I think after having 10 different times that we’ve taken a sabbatical now it’s incredibly important. You need to leave your location and to not do this at home. I knew this last year, but we had our sabbatical at home.

Well, I knew this five or six years ago. And I was constantly telling people this. You have to leave. And I wish it wasn’t this way, I wish you didn’t have to. But in my experience, we just can’t do it at home. 

Linda: No. 

Bob: And we tried this last year. 

Linda: We did try. 

Bob: Because what?

Linda: The book.

Bob: Yeah, because we were in the middle writing the book (Simple Money, Rich Life) and everything else, we ended up having our 2021 sabbatical at home. 

Linda: We, we couldn’t travel. 

Bob: Travel wasn’t gonna work out for one reason or another. Like, we’re gonna do the best we can, even though I know I’ve always told people not to do this. We’re gonna try it. And I was right. It was just… 

Linda: It was terrible!

A break from work is not a sabbatical

Bob: It was a terrible sabbatical. It wasn’t a bad break. It still was a break away from work, but just a bad sabbatical. It was not the rest that I hoped for. 

And that comes back to kind of what this question is a little bit like everything is the same and that’s the thing.

I’m just in the same routine when a home. Of cooking or whatever, doing the laundry. All the different things that we’re doing normally: checking the mail, noticing the busted thing on the house that we gotta get fixed. Like all that normal stuff is still there. And you need to get away from that.

So we do still cook. I still cook a lot when we go on the sabbatical. We still do laundry of course, but we try to reduce that. 

Avoiding stress and finding rest

Linda: I think everyone can ask this question for themselves. What stresses you out the most? Honestly, on this sabbatical our dryer broke. So that made laundry even more stressful for me.

But what would it look like to have laundry service for the month? How much would that cost and would that be worth it? It might be worth it. 

Bob: Yeah, and it’s the same thing with cooking, I actually enjoy cooking. But if I didn’t, then I would definitely be asking that question. It’s like, I don’t want to eat out every single dinner. 

Linda: How can we save up enough until the next sabbatical to not have to make our food?

Bob: But if that is the thing that is gonna make this sabbatical feel not restful and feel not like it’s sabbatical then yeah, maybe we should ask that question. How can we find another way to get food? Maybe we fast our dinner every night. I don’t know. Linda probably won’t like that one. 

Linda: I don’t think the kids will like fasting for dinner. Yeah, but I think that’s a good question. I’m actually going to ask that question for us next time about getting a laundry service. 

Bob: That’s a great idea. 

Linda: That that was one of the parts that just felt like a lot to me. 

Staying organized with sabbatical checklist

Bob: So, getting a little bit more granular. I have a handful of like checklists that I go through each time we prepare for a sabbatical. Just asking my questions about the year. And, to get things planned out and structured. And I think that it might be good to pull that to together in a way that we can get that to people. 

Focusing on family time

Linda: Another thing that we really try to focus on is family time. Because, in our minds, this is our kids sabbatical as well. So, we still did school work with Alden as he is homeschooled. 

Bob: Which I would’ve been fine not doing that, but I just felt like I wanted to have a little time to be able to teach him myself and spend some time with him, you know? Because up to that point, I think you had been pretty much doing all of the schooling.

Linda: Right. 

Bob: So I wanted to do it and that’s part of why we did continue with homeschool during our sabbatical. 

Sabbatical benefits for the kids

Linda: But we also try to plan a lot of things that the kids are going to enjoy. So, even though the days I’m hardcore parenting, it’s still nice to have Bob come home around lunchtime and then do the rest of the day together.

That is still a huge benefit. And also be like, okay, well, what do we want to do with the kids? Like what memories do we want to be making? 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: Because even though they’re not sitting there just reading the Bible for hours. There’s still just family rest and family fun time that we can have with them.

I honestly think every single year that we’ve done this, I’ve noticed big changes in the kids. The first time we did it with Alden, he was a year and a half. And we took the month off. It was January, or not January. 

Bob: June, right? 

Linda: June through July. Yeah. And Alden had been my little buddy. He had been my, my baby. And all of a sudden after that trip, it was like he and Bob just clicked and they were two peas in a pod from then on out. I think even still your relationship is really solid. And I think a lot of that is based off of that trip.

There’s just been a lot of stuff like that, where we’ve just seen the kids change. Because they’ve had so much time with their dad, which not every kid gets that you know. And there’s a lot of working moms where it’s true for you as well. So, that’s been really big, I think, too.

A sabbatical needs to be intentional

Bob: Yeah. And with that the family time, the one word that I think to take from this, if you want it to be a good sabbatical, as in really restful as in I think the most life changing thing, it needs to be intentional.

I think the intentional is the word there. Some people will go on a vacation and think that a sabbatical is the same thing. And they’re just not. Again, there’s no judgment.

I’m just saying that for us, we’ve taken vacations and we’ve taken sabbaticals. And they’re just very different. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: So you can vacation. My definition of a vacation is just doing a whole bunch of stuff. Staying really busy. You’re not working, which is a benefit. But in terms of a restful perspective, if I’m going to Disney for 8-12 hours each day, and just the constant run run, run, run…

Linda: Right. 

Bob: Like that’s just a different thing. And so what we do with the kids, we’re doing some fun stuff. But that’s not the goal. The goal is not to just fill the time with busyness and whatever. It’s really to have intentional time together. Intentional family time. 

Linda: Yeah, we took the kids out for a date each week. Everyone got a date. 

Bob: One on one time, like parent with kid type of thing. I think intentionality is just the most important part for who is wanting to do something like this.

Don’t be intimidated to take a sabbatical

Bob: I’ll add this because I know I would’ve thought if you had asked me 15 years ago… a month sabbatical? I would’ve been so intimidated by it. And You don’t need to be.

There’s just nothing that’s impossible for God. And even though your job situation might look like that’s never possible. It doesn’t need to be.

I would encourage you to pray about it and ask him. You’re only gonna find the answer if you’re actually seeking it out. So, it’s worth praying about and asking God “is this possible?”

Start small

And start small. Like start with a week then stretch yourself. Even if you’re not having a day’s sabbatical, start with just a day. Because the first week I did, I remember I was freaked out by that.

So it’s okay. It’s natural that it feels impossible that it feels like a stretch, but continue to lean in that. 

Linda: And maybe you’re in a profession where it’s just not possible even to get a week off. I think there’s lots of different scenarios out there. But I would encourage you to think, “okay, what does it look like if I go to my job and then the time after work is over is complete sabbatical time?” Like complete rest time. Do that for a week. Do it for a month or however long you feel led to do it. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: But. I think there are ways to get the benefits without doing it exactly how we do it. I mean, we are extremely fortunate. We understand that. We… 

Bob: Yeah, but I think the intentionality is the key. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: So without it, I just don’t think it’s gonna happen. And that’s where what you’re talking about is like, “if I’m choosing next week as a sabbatical like I have to go to work. Okay, great. So how can I rewrite those other eight hours of the day in a way intentionally to not let them be what they have been in the past. And create a new operating system or something like that for that phase.”

Linda: And I even think that this can possibly work while at work. What does it look like for you to be in rest mode at work? And I don’t mean being lazy or not getting things done.

I just mean the internal turmoil that is typically going on while there. If you let that rest, you know what I mean? Like for parenting, it looks like: normally I would not let them play with Playdough on the carpet. But today I’m just gonna chill out about it. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: And let the way, I even talk to my kids about it is different when I just have that thought, you know, we can’t play on the carpet.

What if we put a towel down instead? You know what I’m saying is like, how can we rest even in the work that we have to do? 

Bob: Yeah. That’s good.

Linda: That’s a message for myself right there. I’m not kidding, I’m preaching to myself. 

Bob: I feel like we’re transitioning to rest. Well, yeah.

Linda: Yeah. 

We need to be living in rest

Bob: But yeah, because we should be living in this rest and everything we’re doing every day.

Linda: We should be, it’s really hard. 

Bob: I remember hearing somebody talk about sabbatical and saying something to the effect of :

“if you live your life in a way that you have to have a sabbatical, then there’s a problem with how you’re living your life.”

Bob: And I think that there’s some truth to that for some people. But at the same time, I feel like taking a sabbatical rubs off on how you live the rest of your life or it can’t. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: And I feel like it’s done that for me. Because when you take a month off away from work, then you’re in a situation where….I mean, it’s like bootcamp. Where you go through this thing that otherwise would’ve seemed really difficult or impossible. 

Linda: Right. 

Bob: And now you’re faced with this other challenge and you’re like, well, that wasn’t that big of a deal. I just took a month off. So I can go to the hospital because something came up and I’m not able to do X or Y or Z for three days straight. It’s like, well it’s not what I wanted, but you know, I’ve taken a month off. I can do that, you know? 

Linda: Yeah. 

Frustrations and expectations

Linda: The other thing that I will add, every single time I have taken sabbatical… during it I’ve been like this is not doing anything. I don’t know why we’re doing this.

This feels like there are parts of it that feel frustrating to me. Do you feel like this or is this just me? 

Bob: I don’t think it’s as much as you, I have a lot of fun. 

Linda: I feel frustrated because I always expect it to be thing different than it is. 

Bob: Yeah that’s true. That’s a good point. 

Linda: This is where we’re different. It’s like he has his expectations probably set in the right spot. And mine are just different. The first couple days it just feels really like, I don’t know where to go. I don’t know what to do.

And this is one of the things that I think we could do better at is picking the same place each time, because the first time we do it, I’m like, I don’t know what coffee shop I wanna go sit at.

I don’t know where anything is. I feel just a little bit like lost. And I think every time we’re in it, I’m like, I don’t know what I’m getting out of this. And then after it’s over, I’m like, oh, okay I see that it was this, this, this, this, this. And I look back and hindsight is 20/20 for me every single time.

Bob: Yeah.

Linda: Every time. 

God does big things through really small things

Bob: That point about expectations, I think is really important too, because I think it’s like this a lot with what God does in our lives. It always seems to be like he does these big things through really small things that seem insignificant.

And it feels like a lot of times it’s a seed planted. Maybe a tiny little seedling where it’s easy to go into and be like I’m taking a month off to seek the Lord. I’m expecting Jesus to show up, and just to be like the biggest thing.

And it’s easy to get in that mindset. To be honest, since we took that year off in 2017, we took the entire year off as a sabbatical year. And that entire year I was really disappointed because I thought, all right if God’s calling us to take a whole year off we’re gonna get something great.

Linda: It’s gonna be amazing.

Bob: Literally it wasn’t until I think two days before the end of the year that I finally got something that I thought was that could be fairly significant from God.

Linda: And it has been. 

Bob: And it has been. It’s single handedly been the biggest thing in terms of reorienting and refocusing our efforts for our business, for our life and for our future.

All in God’s timing

Bob: I don’t know that there’s been anything bigger than what I felt like God spoke to me in the two days before that year sabbatical was up.

But most of that year people would come up to be like, well what are you getting from God? You’ve been taking the whole year off on sabbatical that God called you to do What’s he telling you? I’m like I don’t know nothing.

Linda: Right. And I think that’s scary too is because we have other people expecting something to happen. That’s not happening. And it’s like, you can’t manufacture stuff. Like you just have to wait on the Lord. You just have to wait. 

Bob: Yeah. 

Linda: And he will reveal it when he is ready and when he thinks that we’re ready, so. 

Bob: Yeah. But that’s part of it is getting in the position to be ready. And which requires the decompression, the stepping away from the noise like all this stuff. 

Linda: Yeah. 

Bob: Sometimes it takes a while for us to get in a position to be ready to hear. 

Linda: Hopefully that’s helpful. 

In closing

Bob: That is everything you wanted to know about our sabbatical and more and how we do it. Hopefully this is helpful. Send this to somebody you know who is wanting to take a sabbatical. Again, our encouragement is just seek God in this. We’ll be praying for you.

Linda: There’s power in it. There really is. 

Bob: It’s a really special thing.

Am I financially ready for a baby?

June 3, 2022 By Laura Wales

If you’re wondering, “Am I financially ready for a baby?”, I’ve got an honest answer for you: You’re probably never going to be 100% ready for a baby.

how to prepare your finances for a baby

Babies change everything in ways you can’t even comprehend until you have one. But babies are such a blessing!

And of course, babies often just come anyway without you planning for them to show up.

But if you’re not currently expecting and are considering your future, here are some questions to think about as you determine if you’re not financially ready to add a baby to your family.

Even if you’re already expecting, these questions should help you make a solid plan as you prepare for your little one.

Am I Financially Ready for a Baby?

How much money should you have before you have a baby?

There’s no specific number to shoot for here, but it is important to have at least some money saved. Most financial experts recommended an emergency fund that covers 3 to 6 months’ worth of necessary expenses (if you don’t have anything get started with your first $1000).

This emergency fund can cover you in case you need to or want to take time off work after the birth of your baby, but also in case there are any unexpected medical expenses or other expenditures you need to cover.

Even beyond the birth of your baby, an emergency fund will help you pay for any surprises that might pop up, whether it’s related to your child or not.

What’s my job situation?

As with savings, you don’t need to have a certain income to be ready for a baby, but you should consider your job’s stability. Having another person to support – especially one that can’t provide for themselves – is a big responsibility.

It’s best to have a full-time job – preferably with benefits – before having a baby. This should provide a significant enough income for paying the bills, and health insurance (or an alternative like Medi-Share) will help cover pregnancy visits and your hospital experience.

Also, consider your maternity or paternity leave. Paid parental leave is not a universal practice in the United States, but you’re probably covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA).

Under FMLA, eligible employees are allowed to take up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave within the first year of their baby’s life. During this time, your job is protected, and you are still covered under your employer’s health insurance.

Of course, if your employer offers paid parental leave, awesome! Be sure to check with your human resources department to confirm exactly what benefits and leave are available to you.

Beyond leave, you’ll also need to consider your childcare situation. Is one parent going to stay home with the baby? If you’re in a two-parent situation and both parents are going back to work, how will you cover childcare?

Will you work opposite shifts, find a friend or relative to watch the baby, or pay for daycare? There’s no one right answer, but it is something you need to consider as childcare can be a significant expense.

If you decide to have one parent stay home with the baby, I recommend that you begin living off one income as soon as possible to get used to your new financial situation.

This will also allow you to pay off debt with the other parent’s income and/or rack up some significant savings as you prepare for your baby.

What steps am I taking toward debt payment and planning for retirement?

You don’t need to be 100% debt-free to be financially ready to have a baby, but you should be committed to paying down and paying off your debt. Getting your debt payments under control is important for your family’s stability.

As for retirement savings and investing, you don’t have to have a fully-funded Roth IRA each year, but you should be contributing to retirement as much as possible once your debt is paid off.

The sooner you get started saving for retirement, the better. If you’re considering having a baby, chances are you’re on the younger end of adulthood with lots of time to grow your accounts. But that money won’t grow if it’s not there.

Can I afford a baby?

How do you know if you’re financially ready for a child?

You’ve probably read about how having children is super expensive with some ridiculous number like they’ll each cost you $200,000 over the course of their childhood.

Here’s the thing: having a baby doesn’t have to be super expensive. Don’t fall for the marketing hype that babies need everything. Their needs are simple at first: a place to sleep, a source of food, clothes, and diapers.

There will, of course, be other expenses like increased health insurance premiums, possibly a larger and more expensive house, and eventually extra money spent on utilities, clothing, and food.

But remember that it’s likely that your income will increase over the course of time as your child grows. You’ll be able to add to your savings, including an education account for your child if you so choose, while your baby is growing up.

If you don’t already track your finances and have a method that keeps you accountable, you’ll want to get started with that ASAP. When you have a baby to care for, you won’t have as much disposable income as you do now.

A budget helps you get used to planning where your money goes, so when regular expenses come along (like childcare), you’ll know how to fit them in.

Don’t worry – you don’t need to have your budget figured out for the next eighteen years. You just need to have a solid foundation of a budget that you can adjust as your income and expenses change. (Grab our sheet here.)

Is there ever a perfect time to have a baby?

If you wait for the “perfect” time to have a baby, you’ll be waiting a long time.

But you can ask yourself these questions before having a baby to help you make financial choices that will help your situation when a baby comes along.

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Bob Lotich

Hey! I’m Bob Lotich. Jesus follower, husband, dad, best-selling author, CEPF®, and money nerd.

This site contains the lessons I learned on my journey from being a stingy, debt-ridden fool, to being able to give more than I ever dreamed, having a paid off house by age 31, and peace with money in the process. Find out more or join us here.

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